Is Josh Filler the World's Best Pool Player?

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Depends on metric used to measure “best player”. Based on major titles won and based on WPA ranking , he is #1 https://wpapool.com/ranking/ NOW
Based on Fargorate, it is Wu. Fargorate is longer term metric and I think it is better indicator of future performance. Major sports like tennis, golf use majors/ Grand Slam won to determine top player so on that basis, Filler is top NOW. He has earned it.
He is front runner to be Player of the Year. But because the gap between the elite top players is so close, it is still up in the air who will be Player of the Year cos there are still a few majors remaining.
The key word is NOW.
What we can say for certain is Filler will be one of best players by end of year but we cannot say for certain that he will be Player of the Year yet.


People are saying Filler's safety game is suspect. People used to say that about Wu as well.
Wu’s safety game was really suspect a decade ago. He was adrenalin pumping shotmaker but bit short in safety department ( Still good safety game but not at elite level). Yang used to manhandle and school him ( this was after Wu won W9B and W8B) in safety game and Wu was not successful in regional tournaments which were mostly won by Yang, Efren , Chang Jung Lin.
Wu now is complete player compared to Wu of decade ago. I see his break is much better, more controlled resulting in less scratches (maybe only in US Open). And that is scary for other players cos until recently I see that as his slight weakness.
Sure safety aspect does not come up often- maybe less than 50%? I mean if opponent breaks well open table shot on low number , there is no safety aspect. But against that you have to weigh that the gap of top shotmaking of Filler vs other elites is very small %. Let us not forget that probably 95% to 99% of the shots that Filler can make , the other elites also can make also except maybe it is slower, not so instinctive. Just that Filler shotmaking is more exciting, cool and nicer to watch. :D I mean how can you beat the top players just on shotmaking ALL the time ?
I think for the upcoming World 10 ball in July, the player to beat is not just Filler. The players to beat are Wu, SVB, Filler, Shaw Chang Jung Lin and a few others. :D
 

Petros Andrikop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If currently WPA world number 1 is not the currently best player in the world, then who is it?...
I understand all the talk about playing level evaluation, but when talking about competitive Pool we need to follow an official route in order to evaluate players, regardless of what we think about the official point system and the improvements it could take or other factors such as participation etc., it is still common for all.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Many people agree that Filler is not the best in the world right now. His shotmaking certainly doesn't need improving, so that leaves his safety play, which SJM agrees was sub-par in Stage 2 of the tournament.

To consider him the best in the world, he needs to elevate his safety play to the level of his shot making. I think that would do it.



_______

Just because his safety play was bad during one portion of a tournament doesn't mean his overall safety play is bad.
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
Just because his safety play was bad during one portion of a tournament doesn't mean his overall safety play is bad.
I've never said that his overall safety play was bad. I said that it was not top-tier and it was sub-par in the US Open. If a top player can't consistently deliver great safeties, then there is obviously room for improvement. And that is exactly what he needs to improve on to be better than all the rest.

I'm quite sure that every aspect of his game is better than the normal "A" player, but that is not going to make him the best in the world.

Remember, the question is whether he is the best in the world. Not whether he is a great player. Big distinction.

I equated Filler to Shaw, who is one of the best shotmakers like Filler, and who over the years improved his safety play dramatically. It's not that Filler's overall safety play is terrible, but if it is sub-par in one event, that should tell you that that is where he needs to improve to be the very best.
 
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JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
It is bizarre that he was left off the Mosconi team after being MVP the previous year. Did he piss somebody off in the meantime?

Not to start some kind of conspiracy theory here but I think everyone involved wanted USA to win last year to keep the event alive. European players certainly didn’t dump or anything but perhaps the team and some matches were chosen with that in mind.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not to start some kind of conspiracy theory here but I think everyone involved wanted USA to win last year to keep the event alive. European players certainly didn’t dump or anything but perhaps the team and some matches were chosen with that in mind.

(Responding more to the post you responded to than your post...)

Three of the Euro Mosconi team were based on tournament ranking points. Even when Mario He got dropped, Kazakis was next on the ranking points list. Chamat picked Shaw and Ouschan as his two captain’s picks, which are pretty hard to argue with. This was of course before Filler won both the World 9-ball and US Open.
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Based on Fargorate, it is Wu. Fargorate is longer term metric and I think it is better indicator of future performance"

The top five players in FargoRate are covered by 10 points. That seems like a margin of error-level difference, not an important or distinguishing one.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
"Based on Fargorate, it is Wu. Fargorate is longer term metric and I think it is better indicator of future performance"

The top five players in FargoRate are covered by 10 points. That seems like a margin of error-level difference, not an important or distinguishing one.

Agreed. Not much difference at the top in Fargo rating, but WPA ranking means at least as much, and to ignore it as one of the measuring sticks of a player is illogical. Filler is the WPA #1, and the World #1 ranking is equally accessible to all. Doesn't mean Filler is the best --- he only might be --- but to say he isn't based on Fargo alone doesn't work for me.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Helluva safety from Filler here:

LqPCd5.gif
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
Helluva safety from Filler here:

LqPCd5.gif
Okay, now show all of the safeties that he botched in the US Open and then we have something to compare this one great safety against. Point being, pulling one great safety out of a hat doesn't mean much in the context of whether he's the best in the world.
 

Mich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From December 2017 to April 2019, Josh Filler accomplished the following:

December 2017: A 5-0 campaign at the Mosconi, earning him the Mosconi Cup MVP.

June 2018: Won the World Pool Series 10-ball event with some of the straightest shooting I have ever seen.

Dec 2018: Won the World 9-ball Championship against a stellar field.

Jan 2018: Ran 285 balls in straight pool to set the high run record at Derby City.

Jan 2018: Beat JL Chang 17-14 in 10-ball in a high stakes action match at Derby City.

Feb 2019: Won the Eurotour event at Leende in the Netherlands

April 2019: Topped an elite field of 256 at the US Open 9-ball

So here goes. Is Josh Filler now the World's best pool player? What's your opinion?

As for me, I'm still deciding.
Stu,
He also beat JL Chang in the China Open in 2017 in the final. Not too shabby.
 

Mich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fargo Rate means nothing. It's just like Golf and Tennis -- who cares who's number one in the rankings, tell me how many MAJORS did you win this year? Filler's list of wins in major tournaments is impressive as Stu listed.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Fargo Rate means nothing. It's just like Golf and Tennis -- who cares who's number one in the rankings, tell me how many MAJORS did you win this year? Filler's list of wins in major tournaments is impressive as Stu listed.

Yup, the bigger the moment, the more dominant Filler becomes. Few seem to think that this matters, and that Fargo rate should be considered in a vacuum, but since December, Filler has beaten the two toughest fields of the year.
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
I quickly scanned through the finals match looking for a safety from Filler -- and to my surprise, he didn't even attempt a safety until after 1 hour into the match. All of his mistakes were going for extremely hard shots and missing and selling out.

His first safety attempt is below:
https://youtu.be/5hCpdXlkRbU?t=1h21m7s

Then he executed a good safety, followed later by the famous 2-ball shot, where it's hard to figure out what he was trying to do:
https://youtu.be/5hCpdXlkRbU?t=1h38m35s

That's it. In the entire finals match, I only saw 3 safety attempts by Filler. 1 bad, 1 good, and the crazy 2-ball that he lucked in.

Scanning his match with Jayson Shaw, I only saw 2 very short safety battles. Filler came out on top of these two by making thin cut shots that Jayson left him. Example of his first safety of the match:
https://youtu.be/NvdZiJnN3uk?t=23m51s

Match against Ruiz, first safety battle Filler won, then these bad ones:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=9m4s
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=15m37s
Maybe going for 9-ball?
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=28m56s
Then this one, leaving the 2-ball open:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=30m15s
Then this one. Safety, or jump-banking the 3-ball?
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=36m36s
Then a pretty good safe:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=49m16s
Then a not so good safe:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=51m23s
Then another attempt, where he doesn't get safe:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=52m18s
Then later, a not so good attempt, but works to give him the first shot:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=1h1m14s
Then later, not a real strong attempt that costs him the game:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=1h8m49s
Followed by a bad safe later:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=1h18m40s
Followed by another bad safe:
https://youtu.be/_L8XU6FVC7I?t=1h22m15s

I think that this is enough to make the point that his safety game is okay, but not great.
 
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skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
how many of the asian tournaments are reported to fargorate? i find it a bit odd that wu went up by so many points.

of course fargorate is not the measure of the worlds best player. wpa is, and the world championship is. this is just another case of some people applying different measures willy nillingly and defying any tendency to have an organized, orderly and standardized pool scene. fargorate is a great for what it is though, a private initiative to keep track of players speed
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
how many of the asian tournaments are reported to fargorate? i find it a bit odd that wu went up by so many points.

of course fargorate is not the measure of the worlds best player. wpa is, and the world championship is. this is just another case of some people applying different measures willy nillingly and defying any tendency to have an organized, orderly and standardized pool scene. fargorate is a great for what it is though, a private initiative to keep track of players speed

If the hundred best players had a round robin tournament.....
....and you were going to bet serious money on each match...
...I would suggest using FargRate instead of WPA to do your handicapping.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
If the hundred best players had a round robin tournament.....
....and you were going to bet serious money on each match...
...I would suggest using FargRate instead of WPA to do your handicapping.

If you keep giving advice, we will never make any $$$ off these people :grin-square:
Jason
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He may be the best now, it is so subjective. If he puts a few years together similar to this past year, there will be no doubt.

Also, right now he is young, making some money, attractive young wife...seemingly on top of the world. As one ages, bills increase, maybe a mortgage to worry about, kids add a whole new level of pressure. Missing first steps and school recitals to go play a pool tournament could cause a lot of issues. Maybe some of these things contribute to the earlier post mentioning a 2-3 year window when a player may dominate.

I am excited to see how he develops as a professional. He definitely has all the physical tools.
 
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