Developing Expertise In Pool

Protractor · Oct 18, 2020

In somewhat reverse order...

Imac007 said:
... I think you get the drift.

Yes, as you may have gathered, I practice along these lines.

Imac007 said:
.
A variant I developed for 8 ball practice involves when there is a miss. Instead of resetting the shot or pushing the miss to the hole, I treat it as a turnover by an opponent.

I originally did that, and still do, depending on what the table looks like afterwards.

Imac007 said:
It echos your “not missing” mindset. When an opponent misses, after making a few balls, you can play a game where you limit opportunity, in order to craft a win. It’s a bit like the kids game of keep away.

Yes, as I mentioned, I was a Johnny-come-lately to the defensive play aspect so the switching sides simulation has been invaluable in learning that.

Imac007 said:
Depending on jump shot local rules and opponent ability, the strategic difficulty varies. The current league I’m in has few accomplished jumpers. Once an opponent has cleared most of their balls, the safety play resembles snooker or rotation games

I am fortunate in that we now have two leagues in our small town area (~10k). One league is VNEA, which allows jumping and the other is a weird mix of Valley and bar rules. I have drawn fouls in the latter by performing jump shots LoL. The VNEA league consists of mostly the more 'elite' players.

Imac007 said:
My mindset is a combination of patience and making it so that the miss always leads to a loss. If a safety or shot is missed, the Effren process is applied. The idea is that the miss should lead to a loss by your opponent, not a back and forth game scenario with misses playing out.

Yes, I make sure to make the opponent pay for any miss.

Imac007 said:
It elevates the importance of the shot to nothing, patient safety play and breaking out balls first before trying to run the balls. More balls equal more cover. This incorporates kicking practice as you play the original miss player, too. Effren used to do this when a miss led to a kicking situation.

When I get to such a kicking situation, I usually try the kick.

Imac007 said:
A progression using a half hour of endplay followed by full table spread ball with ball in hand transitioning into finishing with run outs sprinkled with what I call “fatal miss” practice, is good. You can increase the likelihood of fatal miss situations by adding it to ghost ball practice that uses a break to start. Usually a break instead of spread balls creates more difficult break and run setups. You get to practice your break with that process.

I like the additional realism of starting with the break. Heaven knows I need more practice breaking and it seems more useful than spending the time trying to simulate a break leave by manually spreading the balls.

Imac007 said:
Schedule breaks that let you debrief and emulate play to simulate league or match play. It’s part of taking the game into practice. Teammates can help by filling time you would normally be seated. This is another way of taking the game into practice.

One player works on break and run while the other player adds the fatal miss practice, getting mulligans. Dry breaks can be handled as a fatal miss or allow the breaker to take ball in hand.

When I get the chance to play one of my team mates in practice we treat it as a match. Playing the Devil is the best simulation I've come up with in absence of that but it is still the same player playing both hands so not quite real life. A real person as an opponent leads to more unexpected results, just like a match so I like to use use both approaches.

We had a league sign up meeting on Thursday that results in open tables so me and my team mates took advantage by playing each other. I kicked butt early on and then started losing later when I got tired. The team mate I lost to helped me recover my table over the weekend and after it was done and we tried it out I got even with him, 5-0.

Imac007 · Oct 20, 2020

straightline said:
You mentioned classical training. Just to scale that, can you get through a program? a piece? and what do you think when in do mode?

I think this is an underexplored element of expertise. There are tons on books and research papers on self paced target sports, of which I consider pool one. Even team sports often have penalty shots. This thread started with that element in the very first post.

We have now added musical performance but there is lot of research from other fields. I’ve posted on psychology, neuroscience, motor skills learning, attention control science, and imagery. There is plenty of sport science research to draw from too. You can find a few sources here.

http://psychology.iresearchnet.com/sports-psychology/psychological-skills/preperformance-routines/

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ze_shifts_in_a_dynamic_visual_prediction_task

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._probabilistic_quantities_for_different_goals

https://academy.sportlyzer.com/wiki/attention-and-concentration/

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ake_to_Realize_Expertise_in_Self-Paced_Events

You may have to request the research but it has always been granted to me, no charge.

Imac007 · Oct 21, 2020

bbb said:
this may or may not help you based on your receptivity to the concept
maybe it will help others
i am not an instructor
https://www.drdouggreen.com/wp-content/Talent-Is-Overrated.pdf

I also found this link in the instructors forum. It fits right in with the music theme and current topic.

Protractor · Oct 21, 2020

Imac007 said:
I also found this link in the instructors forum. It fits right in with the music theme and current topic.

Good article/recap. I laughed when I read about the lack of correlation between IQ and proficiency. If you have known as many rock & roll guitarists as I have, you already figured that one out!

Protractor · Oct 21, 2020

After thinking about it some more I decided I do not really like the name I had come up with for my simulated match practice, "playing with the Devil, so I came up with a better one: "Doppleganger."

As I said earlier, this, more than anything else has improved my game.

Gathered together, here is the exercise, all in one spot.

Playing Doppleganger (8-ball)

Rack the balls and break.
Analyze the table, pick the run out candidate.
Choose your pattern, if you didn't already.
Follow "The Process" (shot/shape planning, PSR, mental/physical execution) to run out.
If you run out, spot the 8 and run it out again
If you didn't run out the first time, the Doppleganger gets his turn to work at running out.
Repeat until 'someone' wins.
If there are sufficent balls on the table after someone wins, or an interesting layout that resulted, spot the 8 and try running that out.
Otherwise, rack and start again.

8-ball Variations

If you failed to get your shape:
a) set up the shot and try again, or,
b) adjust the pattern accordingly to run out, or,
c) play a safety

If the Doppleganger plays an effective safety, do your best to escape it and get even, setting up the shot again as many times as necessary.

If you foul, the Doppleganger has the option of:
a) taking ball in hand, or,
b) shooting the interesting leave that resulted.

For 9-ball it is similar; I will often respot the 9 after making it with a carom/combo and continue shooting.

Imac007 · Oct 21, 2020

The importance of principles.

Protractor said:
Good article/recap. I laughed when I read about the lack of correlation between IQ and proficiency. If you have known as many rock & roll guitarists as I have, you already figured that one out!

The idea of taking the game into practice goes well beyond the development of motor skills. Decision training is about deliberate practice plus focused outcomes. The advantage over traditional drill training is that the skill level reached resists deterioration over time and holds up during the stress of competition. This starts every time I go to play.

Every session whether a match or adding dimensions to my current game through deliberate development should have a mirror quality. Needing to bring a straight stroke is essential in all contexts. That carries a perspective dynamic, proper vision centre location. A few single ball strokes cross corner checking where the cue ends up pointing is a starting calibration. If not possible a stroke down the rail top at the cushion seam give a good reference. Playing the cue ball directly back cross table at the kitchen line with increasing speed tests alignment, grip and delivery. Making sure I’m bringing my body to the cue is primed here. Then I add a second ball.

Straight ins first then transition to aiming cut shots. Include a precise cue ball landing spot. This is the point where the visuals and feel element truly come together. The straight ins should include a stop shot and variable length draw and follow calibration. Cut shots start with a natural roll, then stun, transitioning to tip height and pace control. Each shot has a functional intent.

Trust in the process. Each of these elements from straight cueing to tip height and pace control are context independent. They are part of the principles I need to master, regardless of game.

This is the starting sequence, whenever possible, regardless of whether I am playing a match or starting a deliberate practice session.

1pocketguru · Oct 22, 2020

I really have got more out of "the pro book" and "the pro book 2" than any other source. Couple that with countless hours watching pros play on videos and experiences in tournaments and gambling. Always try to find the best people you can and play them until you beat them then go find better players you can't beat yet. Giving up handicaps is good too but nothing is better than finding good players to learn from and expose your weaknesses.

Imac007 · Oct 22, 2020

1pocketguru said:
I really have got more out of "the pro book" and "the pro book 2" than any other source. Couple that with countless hours watching pros play on videos and experiences in tournaments and gambling. Always try to find the best people you can and play them until you beat them then go find better players you can't beat yet. Giving up handicaps is good too but nothing is better than finding good players to learn from and expose your weaknesses.

This post is about taking your game to the next level. I realize that different people are at different stages in their development and that certain things resonate with them at their current level. What in particular resonated with you in those two books. Perhaps a little context, of your game level at the time, would help.

Imac007 · Oct 22, 2020

Imac007 said:
This post is about taking your game to the next level. I realize that different people are at different stages in their development and that certain things resonate with them at their current level. What in particular resonated with you in those two books. Perhaps a little context, of your game level at the time, would help.

Here is a link from an interview with Alex P.

https://youtu.be/IhR9G9EYEpY

Plus another link about Alex rivalry.

https://youtu.be/SB9HG8pLFRU

Imac007 · Oct 23, 2020

Imac007 said:
I think this is an underexplored element of expertise. There are tons on books and research papers on self paced target sports, of which I consider pool one. Even team sports often have penalty shots. This thread started with that element in the very first post.

We have now added musical performance but there is lot of research from other fields. I’ve posted on psychology, neuroscience, motor skills learning, attention control science, and imagery. There is plenty of sport science research to draw from too. You can find a few sources here.

http://psychology.iresearchnet.com/sports-psychology/psychological-skills/preperformance-routines/

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ze_shifts_in_a_dynamic_visual_prediction_task

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._probabilistic_quantities_for_different_goals

https://academy.sportlyzer.com/wiki/attention-and-concentration/

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ake_to_Realize_Expertise_in_Self-Paced_Events

You may have to request the research but it has always been granted to me, no charge.

I tend to lean towards evidence based sport research. That said there is a difference between academic theoretical papers and practice based research. There is an excellent physics paper on billiards by Sheppard. It is a theory paper. The section on cue tip travel at impact gives it away. The analysis and math are based on a horizontal cue travel parallel to the table bed. The at the table experience is that this is a rare situation. In nearly every real life context the cue must travel on an angled plane.

A good source of cross sport real life abstracts is published online by Brent Rushall and archived at San Diego State. Access is free with a few books available for sale. I downloaded and paid for one years ago called

MENTAL SKILLS TRAINING FOR SPORTS
A Manual for Athletes, Coaches, and Sport Psychologists Fourth Edition
Brent S. Rushall, Ph.D., R.Psy. San Diego State University and
Sports Science Associates

https://coachsci.sdsu.edu/mastable.htm

This site has a search link for the published online journals.

Bob Jewett · Oct 23, 2020

Imac007 said:
... There is an excellent physics paper on billiards by Sheppard. It is a theory paper. The section on cue tip travel at impact gives it away. The analysis and math are based on a horizontal cue travel parallel to the table bed. The at the table experience is that this is a rare situation. In nearly every real life context the cue must travel on an angled plane. ...

I think your criticism is misplaced. While elevation can be a significant factor in some shots, the analysis of most shots can mostly ignore elevation, especially if side spin is not used. If side spin is used, we can turn to the amazing results of Coriolis for the most important effects.

Those who want to understand some of the physics of pool really ought to look into Shepard's paper. It is written by a pool player who also happens to be a physicist and he has good summaries for non-scientists in the text. Here it is: http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Shepard_apapp.pdf Of course the best source of pool physics info these days is Dr. Dave's side which has videos to go along with the equations which makes them a lot more palatable.

Imac007 · Oct 23, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
I think your criticism is misplaced. While elevation can be a significant factor in some shots, the analysis of most shots can mostly ignore elevation, especially if side spin is not used. If side spin is used, we can turn to the amazing results of Coriolis for the most important effects.

Those who want to understand some of the physics of pool really ought to look into Shepard's paper. It is written by a pool player who also happens to be a physicist and he has good summaries for non-scientists in the text. Here it is: http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Shepard_apapp.pdf Of course the best source of pool physics info these days is Dr. Dave's side which has videos to go along with the equations which makes them a lot more palatable.

No criticism was implied only noted difference. I did say it was excellent material. An understanding that theory vs practice is a critical differentiation, when considering evidence based research, is needed. Theory often fails to differentiate contexts. It is data only until applied within a situation. Ghost ball is based on a theoretical elasticity model. It works in space, a singular context. The context changes when applied in a more down to earth scenario. That is why the Dr. Dave research, the high speed camera work of some European researchers and the recent 35000 frames per second footage from Barry Stark, add context, within the application of theory.

Bob Jewett · Oct 23, 2020

Imac007 said:
... Theory often fails to differentiate contexts. It is data only until applied within a situation. Ghost ball is based on a theoretical elasticity model. It works in space, a singular context. The context changes when applied in a more down to earth scenario. ...

I guess you mean that the simple ghost ball idea needs to be modified for throw if you want the results to be useful in practice. Friction (throw) is already part of the modern theory of ball-to-ball contact. I'm not sure what you mean by "the context changes". Is that the same as including secondary but still important factors in the analysis?

straightline · Oct 23, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
I guess you mean that the simple ghost ball idea needs to be modified for throw if you want the results to be useful in practice. Friction (throw) is already part of the modern theory of ball-to-ball contact. I'm not sure what you mean by "the context changes". Is that the same as including secondary but still important factors in the analysis?

Hate to get picky here (naaht) but if you aim object ball paths instead of "at" a target, then compensation becomes a simple matter of informed shot selection. IOW 5, 10 degrees (whatever it actually is) for cling would be a shot different than geometric ghost ball.

Imac007 · Oct 23, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
I guess you mean that the simple ghost ball idea needs to be modified for throw if you want the results to be useful in practice. Friction (throw) is already part of the modern theory of ball-to-ball contact. I'm not sure what you mean by "the context changes". Is that the same as including secondary but still important factors in the analysis?

Each example, the horizontal cue, the ghost ball, are all theoretical models used to describe, in the language of physics, math, hypothetical situations. By adding gravity to the context the element of throw becomes possible in ball interactions. In no way does this make the physics wrong. Knowing about throw at the table is absolutely necessary. The Shepard snapshot of tip to ball contact lacks the reference quality of mirroring actual experience. That is the common thread. Both depictions don’t mirror actual practice. But we don’t play pool in space or get to play a shot with a level cue except on rare occasions.

Evidence based research is Dr, Dave”s realm but his research only yields the insights that emerge to him. The evidence may yield more insights when viewed with new eyes. This is how knowledge evolves.

Bob Jewett · Oct 23, 2020

Imac007 said:
... By adding gravity to the context the element of throw becomes possible in ball interactions. ...

Gravity has nothing to do with throw other than keeping the balls on the same level. Gravity is in the wrong direction to affect throw.

Bob Jewett · Oct 23, 2020

Imac007 said:
... The Shepard snapshot of tip to ball contact lacks the reference quality of mirroring actual experience. ....

Many of the things he pointed out in his paper had been demonstrated a long time before on the table. I think that the theory -- such as Shepard's paper -- flows from real experience and observation on the table. That is certainly true for squirt (deflection) which was not really understood until high-speed video of tip-ball interactions was seen and something clicked. The theories before such video evidence were hand-wavy garbage.

Imac007 · Oct 24, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
Gravity has nothing to do with throw other than keeping the balls on the same level. Gravity is in the wrong direction to affect throw.

Without gravity there would be no static friction on contact. That’s why the elasticity model works in space. Without static friction to hold the balls in place sliding friction Is negligible. Sliding friction is due to surface imperfections. Without static friction the.first contact of imperfections will cause the surfaces to separate, no sustained slide, just an elastic rebound.

Poolmanis · Oct 24, 2020

Now we talk universal laws here...
That reminded me about universal errors. You know, errors that almost everyone do same way. In golf is one famous universal error that all make. In putting they normally don´t estimate green turn enough and if the green turns to left they miss usually left side of hole.

Pool have a ton of universal errors and I always try learn from them.

"why everyone is missing that shot same way?" pros and amateurs. There is a reason for most of those and if one can figure it out he can resist to tendency to do so.

dr_dave · Oct 24, 2020

Imac007 said:
Evidence based research is Dr, Dave”s realm but his research only yields the insights that emerge to him. The evidence may yield more insights when viewed with new eyes. This is how knowledge evolves.

Imac007 said:
Without gravity there would be no static friction on contact.

I agree that knowledge and understanding can improve as more people theorize, analyze, experiment, and discover, but I get the sense that you haven't "done your homework" to know what stuff is already fully understood or in need of knowledge evolution (or revolution).

For example, throw is very well understood. I know because I have done my homework by studying the works of people before me like Coriolis, Marlow, Shepard, Jewett, and many others (see the physics resources page for references). I have also done thorough analysis of the math and physics of throw (see TP A.14 and other titles containing the word "throw" on my Technical Proofs page). I have also learned a lot from super-slow-motion video footage (see titles containing "throw" on the High Speed Video page). I have also done many practical experiments at the table to verify many throw effects (see the videos, articles, and info under various topics on the throw resource page). Finally, I have written numerous instructional articles and published numerous instructional videos clearly demonstrating how knowledge and understanding of throw effects can by useful in actual play (see the info and links on the Throw Tutorial page and on the squirt, swerve, and throw effects page).

I suggest you do a little more "homework" on throw before you accuse the current understanding of being lacking.

Regards,
Dave

PS: FYI, cloth friction has nothing to do with throw. See the answer to the 2nd-to-last question here: Answers to Common Questions About Throw.

Developing Expertise In Pool

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