ABIA - what do you think?

I don't want to take sides, I don't want to really get in something I truly know nothing about but, what I do know is that if we all come together and work together maybe, just maybe something good will start to happen.
Who has better idea's then Glen but, he never takes the time to get to them and tells everyone on here what the idea's are, and the next thing you know, someone else put the time in and gets the job done.
John now has a slate dolly for sale and I'm going to purchase one soon.
Jay's going to make a DVD on how to install cloth and, I'm more than sure it will be awesome.
ABIA is going to try and put the mechanic together.

All Glen's ideas, that's what this forum is good for, knockers, and ego's.
All I ever read is I I I me me me. and this is how you should do it.
If you don't want part of, or support someone, then just step a side and let people do as they please.

I've played pool with the best players in the world for 25 years and, all they did was knock everything and then wonder why nothing good ever happens to pool.
Mr. Bond, Rick and some others on here are very intelligent guy's, so why don't you guy's join in
with Pat and Bobby and get things done.

What is the worst that happens, another pool related idea failed, so what.
We all need to work together, give it a shot and see what happens.

Hell, I can take the,I told you so if it don't work out and, if it don't then maybe Rick, Pat, Bobby, and Mr. Bond can make it work the right way but, at least look at the picture before you turn the page.

Personally, I think Glen needs to be involved in this big time, I mean who better to give trade secrets away. Glen has helped more mechanic than anyone, just look at the mechanic's work
on this forum since Glen started posting here.
The mechanic's work on here has improved 10 fold since Glen started to show case his work.

I'm not writing this for feedback, I just think we need to all work together.
look none of us do perfect work on tables but, if we all come together the customer will at least have a chance to hire a good mechanic.

Everyone take a step back, take a deep breath, and have a wonderful Christmas.
Hopefully your friend
Mark Gregory:smile:

Dartman said:

Hey Mark, long time no see. Thanks for adding your thoughts.

IMO a lot of folks here would like to see mechanics come together. ABIA led us to believe they were taking a step in that direction. The real questions to ask are Who is Jeff Black, is he qualified to judge the work of others and what is his purpose in forming ABIA. Is he genuinely looking to improve the trade or pad his bank account. So far what we're seeing is the latter and this is what's being brought to peoples attention.

Glen has said time and again that part of his purpose is to get mechanics to improve their work with a better set of standards. He doesn't issue certificates but most will agree that his stamp of approval has much (free) value. I'd venture to say that if Glen, yourself, Jay or Pat (I can name others) was the name behind ABIA we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Let's extend an invitation to Jeff Black - you're welcome to join the forum and be the official voice and answer guy for the ABIA. There's no better place to reach a large number of table mechanics then right here.

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Rick, you are so right about what you are saying and, I don't know who Jeff Black is of just yet.
I'm more than sure whom ever takes the ball to run with should make money, just how much I can't answer. I mean isn't that why we get up in the morning, to make a living.

As far as guy's like me, Glen, Bobby, and others as well would do a good job as far as the mechanic's.
People such as yourself, Pat and I'm sure there are others would do the job we need done to organize us as a group to certify other mechanic's.

Pat's a great guy, and if he believes in the ABIA, then I'm with him all the way.
I do agree that Jeff Black has to make his presence known, or have someone step up and tell everyone just what's going on now as well as in the future.

The bottom line is that the table manufacture's don't follow up on the install and why would they, they did just what they do, sold the table. The game has grown, as did the knowledge of the people buying tables.

For the first time in I don't know just how long, the consumer of the tables are understanding a good job from a bad. I truly believe Glen had a lot to do with that coming about.

I truly don't have any answers and, if anything is going to come about we need to start somewhere.
Pat tells me that he believes in ABIA at this point and time so that's good enough for me right now.
Maybe down the road we don't like the way things are going and we walk away but, let's first try to get something to walk away from.

I hope everything works out for all of us, for me more than you....opps got side tracked, there's that ego coming out again. lol

HAVE A GREAT DAY! :smile:

Mark Gregory

QuickEdward said:

I know that on this forum are some of the busiest, best and most knowledgeable mechanics in the country. AND NONE OF THEM WERE INVOLVED, NOR ASKED TO BE INVOLVED, NOR EVEN AWARE OF THE CREATION OF THE ABIA.

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Please let me know who was not invited or had no knowlage of the creation of the ABIA.

PoolTable911 said:

Please let me know who was not invited or had no knowlage of the creation of the ABIA.

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Here's the original thread discussing the ABIA.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=155431&highlight=abia

Clearly NO MECHANIC ON THIS FORUM had any inkling of who the ABIA was prior to them recruiting members. A review of the posts in this thread will verify that the ABIA had already been created, and was actively recruiting members and "negotiating" benefit programs before a single mechanic had been approached.

Let me ask you, did YOU, or any mechanic that you know receive any communication from Jeff Black about the formation of the ABIA, it's proposed mission or possible certification process before September 2009?

Let's play a little game and imagine what a TRUTHFUL, HONEST AND ACCURATE EMAIL MIGHT HAVE LOOKED LIKE...

Jeff Black said:

Hi, my name is... well, actually I don't want you to know my name. I would really like you to think that "I" is actually a "we" that is made up of other people who do what you do. Anyway, we (I) would like you to join this group of people like you so that we (I) can improve the industry that you are involved in by creating a certification process that will allow your customers to distinguish you from people that do what you do, but don't do it very well.

We (I) aren't actually going to do much in the way of getting around to actually certifying anyone based on any substantive criteria other than a business license and insurance for well over a year - maybe more. What we (I) will actually be putting our effort into will be to start two other shill companies that will allow us (me) to get a small cut of your labor and material purchases. But to be honest, I'm going to try like hell to hide that from you.

Sure, we're (I'm) going to get you a couple of other benefits like small discounts from supply wholesalers like MBS and Seybert's, but we (I) have to be really careful to hide the fact that since we're trying to get a cut of all your cloth purchases, we're (I'm) actually going to be they're competitor.

Hope to hear from you soon!

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QuickEdward said:

Here's the original thread discussing the ABIA.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=155431&highlight=abia

Clearly NO MECHANIC ON THIS FORUM had any inkling of who the ABIA was prior to them recruiting members. A review of the posts in this thread will verify that the ABIA had already been created, and was actively recruiting members and "negotiating" benefit programs before a single mechanic had been approached.

Let me ask you, did YOU, or any mechanic that you know receive any communication from Jeff Black about the formation of the ABIA, it's proposed mission or possible certification process before September 2009?

Let's play a little game and imagine what a TRUTHFUL, HONEST AND ACCURATE EMAIL MIGHT HAVE LOOKED LIKE...

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I became aware around Sept. 09'. I still want to know who was not asked to join or help? You clearly do not like the ABIA or Jeff Black. You are entitled to your opinion. I wish you well with your business. I hope someday you change your mind and want to help. You have great ideas of how an organization should run. Now I am off to install 2 tables. Have a great day.

PoolTable911 said:

I became aware around Sept. 09'. I still want to know who was not asked to join or help? You clearly do not like the ABIA or Jeff Black. You are entitled to your opinion. I wish you well with your business. I hope someday you change your mind and want to help. You have great ideas of how an organization should run. Now I am off to install 2 tables. Have a great day.

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It would be very easy for Jeff (and you) to get my support for ABIA. Here's what would need to be done to make that possible.

1. Scrap the current business entity of ABIA and replace it with a non-profit.

2. Have Jeff address mechanics directly and come clean about what he's done and why. I have nothing personal against Jeff Black. I've never met the man and have only talked to him over the phone a couple of times about things unrelated to the ABIA.

3. Scrap the "board of directors" overkill and start with a small group of 5-8 of the best and most respected technicians in the country. Use this small group to create a certification criteria and implementation process that is reasonable and easily achievable.

4. I would certainly have no problem paying dues, and would have absolutely no problem with Jeff Black or anyone else being paid from my dues for what will be a significant amount of organizing and administration effort.

An organization like that would have not only my support, but my time and some of my money too.

meeting

Sound like a plan or no?
-
-
Rob.M

The Turk said:

Nobody on this forum is trying to bring them down?

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Maybe you're right. I don't know every single person and what their motives are. Speaking for myself, I just wanted to know the truth. I dont think there is anything wrong with that.

The Turk said:

Your response merely proves my point. No positive solutions and all sarcasm. Could you write a manual? Lets hear it? How would you go about it? You are not a mechanic and you can pull this off? I guess you could just BS your way through it. That sounds so familiar? How about an idea from you. In other words; if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

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you seem to be suggesting that i am somehow obligated to help fix another man's company, while he wouldn't even give me the time of day. thats what i call ironic.

here's a suggestion; the appropriate time for feedback and ideas would have been before they built a website full of half-truths and insults aimed at the rest of the industry. to be totally honest, what Mr Black has on his hands now is an embarrassing mess and i dont want any part of it in its current form.

not because i couldnt or wouldnt benefit from a certification entity, and not because i'm a mean spirited person or wish to see them fail, but because like you, i have my own business interests to deal with, and in my opinion, corporate policy is generally not something that should be discussed and decided in a public forum.

The Turk said:

Have you checked out Brunswick or Any other companies. They have a nice website. It looks nice and inviting. The site constantly reminds you of their heritage. Then you purchase a table for anywhere from $1500 to $20,000 and up. Some hack shows up and installs it like it's a race. You call this company and they point the finger at the store. The store gets to grade the quality of it's own install. Nice! They will then tell you to pound sand. You will have to spend another $500 to $1000 for a mechanic to show up and repair the damage to your new table. Damage inflicted by the supposedly quality installer sent by the company. Where is your investigation on that? I see this s^&t all the time, day in day out. Year in year out. But hey it doesn't matter, they have a nice web site and a quality catalog. You can investigate the company and they are legit.
My customers don't need a mechanic. They need a hug a nice flyer and a user friendly website. While they are online and finish the literature, the pool table will level itself and the cloth will magically tighten.

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preachin to the choir bob. i agree completely, the purpose of certifications is most definitely justified. but if you want to talk about other companies, start a another thread.

PoolTable911 said:

I have been reading your posts about the ABIA and must say you seem to have an axe to grind for someone who claims not to be a mechanic or installer anymore.

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no axe to grind. not at all. i just asked some simple questions. and you saw the response i got.
if i were you, i'd be questioning the person you gave your money to, not me.

PoolTable911 said:

Have you checked out all the associations linked with billiards like you did the ABIA?

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i've investigated the background of many people in the billiard industry. unfortunately its necessary sometimes. but this thread is about the ABIA.

PoolTable911 said:

I am not attacking anyone but do not see the need for the FBI(Forum Bureau of Ivestigation) to scrutinize the ABIA on the forum without knowing everything and everyone involved.

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again, if they have nothing to hide, there should be no harm in me asking who's in charge -or how certifications are issued. these are the same things that a customer would want to know.

PoolTable911 said:

I have been reading your posts about the ABIA and must say you seem to have an axe to grind for someone who claims not to be a mechanic or installer anymore. Have you checked out all the associations linked with billiards like you did the ABIA? The certification that is given is not for the knowlage of the mechanic (not yet, but soon) but to verify a company is a legit business. I compete with guys who have no insurance or tax id number. They steal work because they can afford to work cheaper without the added costs of operating a legit business. I have been a productive member of this forum for 4 + years. I personally know and have worked with many of the mechanics on here. I am not a talker. I get things done. Back in Dec. 09'. A group of us from the forum wrote up what we felt should be a minimum standard to be a certified installer. This is now in the hands of John Burns ( a well respected member here and in the industry) who has stepped up as the "head" of the group. The ABIA is young. Like anyone of us it will learn from it's mistakes and hopefully become better. I do know that the members of the panel will now be voteing for the direction in which the ABIA will go. A not for profit organization is first on the list of things I will be pushing for. Without that I will reconsider my stand. I am not attacking anyone but do not see the need for the FBI(Forum Bureau of Ivestigation) to scrutinize the ABIA on the forum without knowing everything and everyone involved. Put up or Shut up is the way I feel. Something has been started and with our help it can really become something good. My name is on the "list" and I am proud to say I am part of the ABIA and what it will be. Anyone have questions my phone number is in my signiture. Please feel free to call.

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Somebody brought this up to me. I AM NOT APART OF THE ABIA!