2015 US OPEN 10-BALL & 8-BALL CHAMPIONSHIPS! July 24-31, Las Vegas, NV!

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not positive but i think the US Open Golf Championship is being played on a Par 3 course this year.

I think the change to 7' tables for top players actually forces into the spotlight an issue we already had but didn't fully realize--a fundamental problem in the game that doesn't have to do with table size and that can be addressed.

Many people seem not to be understanding a key point in this issue. It is I suppose not obvious. So please consider,

There are two types of games

(1) Scored Games (golf, bowling and diving are examples). These are just player against equipment. Players may choose to compare scores, but opponents are either nonexistent or irrelevant.

(2) Interactive Games (boxing, basketball, soccer, football, and pool are examples). These are player against player .

Equipment/fields/courts/specifications are important for each, but equipment plays very different roles in the two types of games.

For interactive games, unless the game is broken modest changes in equipment/specifications are not so important. You can make a soccer goal 10% wider and the game would still be good. the defensive strategy would just change to compensate. The game wouldn't be easier; it would just be different. It should be the same situation with pool. If it feels like it is not, then that's a sign of a different problem--one with the game itself.

As an interactive game, pool shouldn't by itself be hard or easy; rather, it should be hard against Darren Appleton and easy against me.

If you have a sense that a lesser pro has a chance against Darren Appleton on a 7' table that he wouldn't have against Darren playing the same race on a 9' table, then don't look at the table, look at the game itself. The first thing to look at is what is an apples-to-apples comparison. If there are more break-and-runs on the 7' table, then games go faster and a tournament that was race to 9 on a 9' table can now be race to 11. That should help.

the real issue--the tragedy of the runout

But the elephant in the room issue is not the table size. It is that we have created games for which a one-inning out is too frequent for top pros.

A match at a professional-level tournament should have at least a minimum number (perhaps 15-20) of actual changes in control. This means it first looked like player A had the upper hand in a game, and then something happened to give player B the upper hand. This something could be something A did poorly or something B did well. It is these changes in control that bring out the subtle differences in deep and varied skills amongst the players. Every time there is a break and run, that is a game for which it didn't matter who the opponent was. And that goes against the spirit of the interactive game.

The way we've been playing 9-ball, matches have too few actual changes in control. A forced change in control (like alternating the break) doesn't count here. Games like 8-ball and 9-ball for which players might frequently string together racks with winner breaks are a problem. We have tried to address that problem by going to alternate breaks and by considering 10-foot tables--both poor excuses for solutions.

Some might question this as a problem, given that better players are going to run more racks and have more packages. That's true. But this mindset treats the game like a scored game, not an interactive game. It relegates a match to a series of exhibitions interspersed with an occasional actual change in control. It takes what should at best be a second-tier skill (the break shot) and elevates it to a comical level. And it makes the most dramatic situations in a match be like pulling the lever on a slot machine--whether the player is going to have a shot when all the balls stop rolling on the break. And of course this situation gets worse for rotation games going to a 7' table. When a person comments about comparing pool on a 7' table to golf on a par-3 course, that person has already (probably unwittingly) relegated pool to being a scored game. In other words these structural problems have taken roots.

Again, we want pool to be a true interactive game, where it really matters many times during a match who your opponent is and where several different skills come into play in determining a winner. The game should be structured so that this basic feature exists on all major equipment. This is not hard to do but will require some discussion.

For now, it would be good if people tried to have a positive attitude and embraced the efforts of the few promoters who are actually trying to do something...
 

rhatten

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From the previous poster above... AmRo goes along way in getting this changes accomplished...imo. Thx Joe Tucker, Mark etal for supporting this great game and stepping into the future of pool on a positive step forward. Get involved....Make 'change' happen.

Randy
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
I think the change to 7' tables for top players actually forces into the spotlight an issue we already had but didn't fully realize--a fundamental problem in the game that doesn't have to do with table size and that can be addressed.

Many people seem not to be understanding a key point in this issue. It is I suppose not obvious. So please consider,

There are two types of games

(1) Scored Games (golf, bowling and diving are examples). These are just player against equipment. Players may choose to compare scores, but opponents are either nonexistent or irrelevant.

(2) Interactive Games (boxing, basketball, soccer, football, and pool are examples). These are player against player .

Equipment/fields/courts/specifications are important for each, but equipment plays very different roles in the two types of games.

For interactive games, unless the game is broken modest changes in equipment/specifications are not so important. You can make a soccer goal 10% wider and the game would still be good. the defensive strategy would just change to compensate. The game wouldn't be easier; it would just be different. It should be the same situation with pool. If it feels like it is not, then that's a sign of a different problem--one with the game itself.

As an interactive game, pool shouldn't by itself be hard or easy; rather, it should be hard against Darren Appleton and easy against me.

If you have a sense that a lesser pro has a chance against Darren Appleton on a 7' table that he wouldn't have against Darren playing the same race on a 9' table, then don't look at the table, look at the game itself. The first thing to look at is what is an apples-to-apples comparison. If there are more break-and-runs on the 7' table, then games go faster and a tournament that was race to 9 on a 9' table can now be race to 11. That should help.

the real issue--the tragedy of the runout

But the elephant in the room issue is not the table size. It is that we have created games for which a one-inning out is too frequent for top pros.

A match at a professional-level tournament should have at least a minimum number (perhaps 15-20) of actual changes in control. This means it first looked like player A had the upper hand in a game, and then something happened to give player B the upper hand. This something could be something A did poorly or something B did well. It is these changes in control that bring out the subtle differences in deep and varied skills amongst the players. Every time there is a break and run, that is a game for which it didn't matter who the opponent was. And that goes against the spirit of the interactive game.

The way we've been playing 9-ball, matches have too few actual changes in control. A forced change in control (like alternating the break) doesn't count here. Games like 8-ball and 9-ball for which players might frequently string together racks with winner breaks are a problem. We have tried to address that problem by going to alternate breaks and by considering 10-foot tables--both poor excuses for solutions.

Some might question this as a problem, given that better players are going to run more racks and have more packages. That's true. But this mindset treats the game like a scored game, not an interactive game. It relegates a match to a series of exhibitions interspersed with an occasional actual change in control. It takes what should at best be a second-tier skill (the break shot) and elevates it to a comical level. And it makes the most dramatic situations in a match be like pulling the lever on a slot machine--whether the player is going to have a shot when all the balls stop rolling on the break. And of course this situation gets worse for rotation games going to a 7' table. When a person comments about comparing pool on a 7' table to golf on a par-3 course, that person has already (probably unwittingly) relegated pool to being a scored game. In other words these structural problems have taken roots.

Again, we want pool to be a true interactive game, where it really matters many times during a match who your opponent is and where several different skills come into play in determining a winner. The game should be structured so that this basic feature exists on all major equipment. This is not hard to do but will require some discussion.

For now, it would be good if people tried to have a positive attitude and embraced the efforts of the few promoters who are actually trying to do something...

I have to disagree with you here. Your analagy is lacking because football, soccer etc have an ACTIVE opponent. Pool does not.

pool is an individual game played against an opponent also playing an individual game.

If they were sending their own cueball at your object ball after you send it towards the pocket then it would be valid.

Jaden
 

Bigtruck

Capt Diff Lock
Gold Member
Silver Member
Would a U.S. Open tournament be better on 9-footers? Probably
Is having a U.S. Open tournament on 7-footers better than not having it at all? Absolutely

Last year these tournaments didn't even happen, so I'm glad they are doing them.

Long races reduce the effect of chance, so I bet we still see the same players rise to the top. I'm looking forward to playing next to the pros and watching them in these events.

What are the races?
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have to say this is one of the few mistakes (at least as I see it) I have seen from CSI. I skip any 7 footer events on the streams or on YouTube, watch a few racks maybe then look for something else.

7 footers are what you play on at home and in a bar because you don't have a 9 footer available.

There are logistic reasons why this is on 7 footers but having a Mosconi Cup points event and just any pro event on the small tables is going the wrong way.

I don't think that the idea that low level players don't watch pro pool because it's on bigger tables is a reason at all, many can't even tell them apart unless they are right next to the table and even then it's usually "why are these tables so large" rather than "these are 9 footers, I can't play on those".

We had a couple of guys playing pool using half a set of regular pool balls and half a set of snooker pool balls and did not notice anything odd until I went over to their table to gather the snooker balls and showed them that half the balls they were using were much smaller LOL. Those people will not care if they play on 5 foot of 15 foot tables, it's all the same to them. My son and someone else were playing 9 ball on a snooker table and the table next to theirs just grabbed the snooker ball rack since the balls on the table were also from a 9 ball game. For a second we could not figure out where the snooker rack went till I looked and saw a half filled tray of balls next to the table next to us.

One of the funniest noob pool stories I probably have now next to my "chalk is there to season the cloth" I heard some guy say at Country Club USA in Mass.
 
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GideonF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the change to 7' tables for top players actually forces into the spotlight an issue we already had but didn't fully realize--a fundamental problem in the game that doesn't have to do with table size and that can be addressed.

Many people seem not to be understanding a key point in this issue. It is I suppose not obvious. So please consider,

There are two types of games

(1) Scored Games (golf, bowling and diving are examples). These are just player against equipment. Players may choose to compare scores, but opponents are either nonexistent or irrelevant.

(2) Interactive Games (boxing, basketball, soccer, football, and pool are examples). These are player against player .

Equipment/fields/courts/specifications are important for each, but equipment plays very different roles in the two types of games.

For interactive games, unless the game is broken modest changes in equipment/specifications are not so important. You can make a soccer goal 10% wider and the game would still be good. the defensive strategy would just change to compensate. The game wouldn't be easier; it would just be different. It should be the same situation with pool. If it feels like it is not, then that's a sign of a different problem--one with the game itself.

As an interactive game, pool shouldn't by itself be hard or easy; rather, it should be hard against Darren Appleton and easy against me.

If you have a sense that a lesser pro has a chance against Darren Appleton on a 7' table that he wouldn't have against Darren playing the same race on a 9' table, then don't look at the table, look at the game itself. The first thing to look at is what is an apples-to-apples comparison. If there are more break-and-runs on the 7' table, then games go faster and a tournament that was race to 9 on a 9' table can now be race to 11. That should help.

the real issue--the tragedy of the runout

But the elephant in the room issue is not the table size. It is that we have created games for which a one-inning out is too frequent for top pros.

A match at a professional-level tournament should have at least a minimum number (perhaps 15-20) of actual changes in control. This means it first looked like player A had the upper hand in a game, and then something happened to give player B the upper hand. This something could be something A did poorly or something B did well. It is these changes in control that bring out the subtle differences in deep and varied skills amongst the players. Every time there is a break and run, that is a game for which it didn't matter who the opponent was. And that goes against the spirit of the interactive game.

The way we've been playing 9-ball, matches have too few actual changes in control. A forced change in control (like alternating the break) doesn't count here. Games like 8-ball and 9-ball for which players might frequently string together racks with winner breaks are a problem. We have tried to address that problem by going to alternate breaks and by considering 10-foot tables--both poor excuses for solutions.

Some might question this as a problem, given that better players are going to run more racks and have more packages. That's true. But this mindset treats the game like a scored game, not an interactive game. It relegates a match to a series of exhibitions interspersed with an occasional actual change in control. It takes what should at best be a second-tier skill (the break shot) and elevates it to a comical level. And it makes the most dramatic situations in a match be like pulling the lever on a slot machine--whether the player is going to have a shot when all the balls stop rolling on the break. And of course this situation gets worse for rotation games going to a 7' table. When a person comments about comparing pool on a 7' table to golf on a par-3 course, that person has already (probably unwittingly) relegated pool to being a scored game. In other words these structural problems have taken roots.

Again, we want pool to be a true interactive game, where it really matters many times during a match who your opponent is and where several different skills come into play in determining a winner. The game should be structured so that this basic feature exists on all major equipment. This is not hard to do but will require some discussion.

For now, it would be good if people tried to have a positive attitude and embraced the efforts of the few promoters who are actually trying to do something...

This is an interesting viewpoint, Mike, and one that I will think about.

I certainly agree with the sentiment of not bashing CSI or anyone else that is prepared to devote time and money to promoting pool. If I'm around when this event is streamed, I'm sure I will buy it. Would I prefer it if was 10 ball on a 9 foot? Yes. But watching the top pros is a treat and I will support that.

That said, people can also vote with their wallets and chose not to buy a stream when the play is on 7 footers if they won't enjoy it.

Gideon<----Hears Mike's got an amazing room
 

westcoast

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wish these tourneys were on 9 footers as well but I plan on attending nonetheless if I have to time to make it over to Vegas
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have to disagree with you here. Your analagy is lacking because football, soccer etc have an ACTIVE opponent. Pool does not.

pool is an individual game played against an opponent also playing an individual game.

If they were sending their own cueball at your object ball after you send it towards the pocket then it would be valid.

Jaden

There are plenty of interactive games where defense isn't real-time thwarting offense. Chess is a good example. Bocce Ball is another. Tennis is another. That's just not a key feature. In all of these the interactive aspect of the game plays a key role. As it should in pool.
 

J SCHWARZ

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As for the 10 ball...I think in the big money 9 ball at smokin aces played on valleys the high pack was 6. And that's over two years of that tournament. The game may be easier, sure, but its still far from easy.


6 was a high run for one of the tournaments by Kiamco. Saez ran a 9 pack at one against Hall, and a 7 or 8 pack against McMinn and Chuck Raulston. Dennis ran 3 different 8 packs at the last one, against Durbin, Berg (who was hit with the 8 pack before he even got to the table) It doesn't get much better than the Smokin Aces barbox and 1p events.:thumbup:
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Would a U.S. Open tournament be better on 9-footers? Probably
Is having a U.S. Open tournament on 7-footers better than not having it at all? Absolutely

Last year these tournaments didn't even happen, so I'm glad they are doing them.

Long races reduce the effect of chance, so I bet we still see the same players rise to the top. I'm looking forward to playing next to the pros and watching them in these events.


They could always hold the event. Just call it something else.

Names have meaning. Just look at how CW gets hammered when he tries to call his 14.1 event a "World" championship.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"if you don't like it, don't play" -lfigueroa


I think it's entirely possible some players will elect to not play because it's a bar table event while others might decide to go for exactly that reason.

I also think the same will be true for spectators and aficionados.

Lou Figueroa
that lfigueroa you
keep quoting
is a smart cookie
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the change to 7' tables for top players actually forces into the spotlight an issue we already had but didn't fully realize--a fundamental problem in the game that doesn't have to do with table size and that can be addressed.

Many people seem not to be understanding a key point in this issue. It is I suppose not obvious. So please consider,

There are two types of games

(1) Scored Games (golf, bowling and diving are examples). These are just player against equipment. Players may choose to compare scores, but opponents are either nonexistent or irrelevant.

(2) Interactive Games (boxing, basketball, soccer, football, and pool are examples). These are player against player .

Equipment/fields/courts/specifications are important for each, but equipment plays very different roles in the two types of games.

For interactive games, unless the game is broken modest changes in equipment/specifications are not so important. You can make a soccer goal 10% wider and the game would still be good. the defensive strategy would just change to compensate. The game wouldn't be easier; it would just be different. It should be the same situation with pool. If it feels like it is not, then that's a sign of a different problem--one with the game itself.

As an interactive game, pool shouldn't by itself be hard or easy; rather, it should be hard against Darren Appleton and easy against me.

If you have a sense that a lesser pro has a chance against Darren Appleton on a 7' table that he wouldn't have against Darren playing the same race on a 9' table, then don't look at the table, look at the game itself. The first thing to look at is what is an apples-to-apples comparison. If there are more break-and-runs on the 7' table, then games go faster and a tournament that was race to 9 on a 9' table can now be race to 11. That should help.

the real issue--the tragedy of the runout

But the elephant in the room issue is not the table size. It is that we have created games for which a one-inning out is too frequent for top pros.

A match at a professional-level tournament should have at least a minimum number (perhaps 15-20) of actual changes in control. This means it first looked like player A had the upper hand in a game, and then something happened to give player B the upper hand. This something could be something A did poorly or something B did well. It is these changes in control that bring out the subtle differences in deep and varied skills amongst the players. Every time there is a break and run, that is a game for which it didn't matter who the opponent was. And that goes against the spirit of the interactive game.

The way we've been playing 9-ball, matches have too few actual changes in control. A forced change in control (like alternating the break) doesn't count here. Games like 8-ball and 9-ball for which players might frequently string together racks with winner breaks are a problem. We have tried to address that problem by going to alternate breaks and by considering 10-foot tables--both poor excuses for solutions.

Some might question this as a problem, given that better players are going to run more racks and have more packages. That's true. But this mindset treats the game like a scored game, not an interactive game. It relegates a match to a series of exhibitions interspersed with an occasional actual change in control. It takes what should at best be a second-tier skill (the break shot) and elevates it to a comical level. And it makes the most dramatic situations in a match be like pulling the lever on a slot machine--whether the player is going to have a shot when all the balls stop rolling on the break. And of course this situation gets worse for rotation games going to a 7' table. When a person comments about comparing pool on a 7' table to golf on a par-3 course, that person has already (probably unwittingly) relegated pool to being a scored game. In other words these structural problems have taken roots.

Again, we want pool to be a true interactive game, where it really matters many times during a match who your opponent is and where several different skills come into play in determining a winner. The game should be structured so that this basic feature exists on all major equipment. This is not hard to do but will require some discussion.

For now, it would be good if people tried to have a positive attitude and embraced the efforts of the few promoters who are actually trying to do something...


Mike, personally I hate the "support the effort because (a promoter is trying)" argument because in the past it's been used to prop up guys like up DM and KT, and in the present day BB. MG doesn't deserve to be put in the same boat as those guys.

The rest of your argument is valid IMO but best left for another thread.

Lou Figueroa
 

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is obvious that majority of responses to this thread are not in favor of 7 ft events .
And I absolutely agree. Pros should play on big tables not small tables. It is nonsense to give MC Cup ranking points to 7 ft events. If not enough 9 ft events, count international events. If not enough international events, MC Cup can start own qualifying / selection 9ft tourneys.
:grin-square:
 

BryanB

Huge Balls
Silver Member
You guys might as well face it, the 9ft table era is going away. Pool hall owners are going to the bar tables so they can pack in more league players and actually make money. Everything about the game is slowly changing: break cues, magic racks, jump cues, gloves, custom chalk, chalk holders $3k playing cues. It's going to be an adapt or quit for you.
 

Bigtruck

Capt Diff Lock
Gold Member
Silver Member
Professional Players should be able to play on ALL types of equipment. I personally love to see these players challenged by varying conditions.

This brings in more of the mental aspect of the game. Some will get out of their comfort zone by complaining and agonizing, others will embrace the challenge and rise to the occasion. The latter is the Champion.

Can't wait to see how this unfolds. I do think the Pro's should be playing winner breaks and take what you make, no jump cues for the 8 ball.

Gonna be interesting.

Ray
 

Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
This has been a debate in many threads here recently of bar boxes & elite level players. I've made my feelings known on the subject & at the end of the day anybody can play on any table they want but I feel that any tournament calling itself a U.S. OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP, no matter the game should not be played on a bar box. It just shouldn't.
 

Nostroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You guys might as well face it, the 9ft table era is going away. Pool hall owners are going to the bar tables so they can pack in more league players and actually make money. Everything about the game is slowly changing: break cues, magic racks, jump cues, gloves, custom chalk, chalk holders $3k playing cues. It's going to be an adapt or quit for you.

Everything you mentioned except the magic rack has been around at least 24 years
 
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