When is a Foul a Foul?

If there is no ref, I think BOTH players are on their honor to call fouls, meaning if the player shooting fouls, he should not wait for the other player to say something.

A. you are closest to the shot
B. do you want to rely on the guy that wants to beat you to say what is a foul or not?

A foul is a foul when you foul. Anytime I foul I call myself out and give ball in hand to my opponent. Unfortunately most people don't do that these days.

I'm the type of player Bob and you've played me before that if I foul I will pick up the cue ball and hand it to you before you even ask. Some players feel that the other player should have been paying attention and ask or call it. To me I think it skirts the lines of cheating. And if I can't beat you straight up without trying to pull a fast one then I need to up my game and not cheat someone out of theirs.

TWOFORPOOL said:

I was playing in the Western BCA Team tournament and I notice the opposing player make a bad hit. My team player who was playing him assumed he didn't foul since he didn't say anything. I asked the opposing player if he thought it was a bad hit and he said it was. I then asked him why he didn't admit to a bad hit. He said if my team player had asked if it was a bad hit he would of admitted it but since he didn't ask he wouldn't admit to the foul.

My team player was in his seat (where his suppose to be) and didn't have the vantage point that I had. Any opinions on this?

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He's right. The guy playing him needs to make the call (unless there's a ref). I guess he doesn't need to call it on himself if the other guy doesn't see it.

That's tricky. I'll always call a foul on myself if i commit one and hope my opponent would do the same.

I also believe, though, that only the two players involved should call it. I always feel weird when i see a foul, but my teammate does not so i normally keep quiet about it. I'd rather not argue about it, which is what tends to take place.

Hell I've gone as far as the player has gone to the bathroom and said go ahead and shoot. I've fouled and I will place the cue ball on the rail on a piece of chalk for them to find when they get back. I have pushed that on my teammates also. We don't win by cheating. There are a couple of teams in our division that will say something like "well you didn't have someone watch the hit so no foul". So then I'll turn around and have someone stand over them and watch every shot when they pull that shit.

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Just curious here ... how may honest men pick up the CB automatically without being called on it, when they foul for 100 or 200 a rack?

I think the rule is backward, I think the shooter should have to have a ref watch a shot if it is going to be close, or it is up to his opponent to make the call.

TWOFORPOOL said:

I was playing in the Western BCA Team tournament and I notice the opposing player make a bad hit. My team player who was playing him assumed he didn't foul since he didn't say anything. I asked the opposing player if he thought it was a bad hit and he said it was. I then asked him why he didn't admit to a bad hit. He said if my team player had asked if it was a bad hit he would of admitted it but since he didn't ask he wouldn't admit to the foul.

My team player was in his seat (where his suppose to be) and didn't have the vantage point that I had. Any opinions on this?

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Almost something similar to this happened to our team this past weekend.
If you want to talk about honor, integrity, sportsmanship then as a player YOU SHOULD call foul on yourself.
Having said that I have seen players who will NEVER call a foul on themself. I assume every player I play who I don't know personally belongs to this category. So, its up to you as a player to keep an close eye on your opponent without obstructing their line of sight.

If your opponent is not honest enough to call a foul on themself then its YOUR job to do it. You are suppose to watch what they are doing, and if they get away with something then its your fault.

And if you play by the rules, most of the time your opponents team / your team is not supposed to tell him / her or you about anything that's going on the table. It is considered as a foul / coaching.

3andstop said:

Just curious here ... how may honest men pick up the CB automatically without being called on it, when they foul for 100 or 200 a rack?

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All of them. The keyword is "honest"

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If I make some sort of cue ball foul I will always call it on myself. There are times your opponent may not be able to see or hear a bad QB hit. As far as incomplete shots though I will not call it on myself. Your opponent should be watching his game, not playing with his IPhone when they are competing. If he leaves and tells me to go ahead and shoot, then I will call an incomplete shot on myself and put the QB on the table on top of the cube of chalk. There are just some people who do not pay attention, when something as obvious as an incomplete shot happens your opponent should know what is going on. One of my team mates almost always misses his BIH opportunities on incompletes for no other reason than being a space cadet.

3andstop said:

Just curious here ... how may honest men pick up the CB automatically without being called on it, when they foul for 100 or 200 a rack?

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I don't play for 100 a rack but I always call myself. If my opponent cheats me, I don't play them again. I don't play road players for anything serious for this reason.

TWOFORPOOL said:

He was watching the game from his chair and didn't have a vantage point that I did. Its about whether my team player should of ask if it was a good hit or not and if he was required to ask by the rules of the BCA.

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According to rule 1-21 #2. of the BCAPL rules, if you foul, your inning ends. So, if he knew he fouled, and kept shooting anyways, you could apply a shooting out of turn foul, or an unsportsmanship foul on him.

I couldn't find (doesn't mean there isn't one) a rule explicitly stating that a person has to call a foul on themselves.

However with rule 1-23 #1, it is up to the players only to call fouls. If none was called, then it is erased after the next legal shot.

So, you are somewhat in an ambiguous area here.

Foul?

fastone371 said:

If I make some sort of cue ball foul I will always call it on myself. There are times your opponent may not be able to see or hear a bad QB hit. As far as incomplete shots though I will not call it on myself. Your opponent should be watching his game, not playing with his IPhone when they are competing. If he leaves and tells me to go ahead and shoot, then I will call an incomplete shot on myself and put the QB on the table on top of the cube of chalk. There are just some people who do not pay attention, when something as obvious as an incomplete shot happens your opponent should know what is going on. One of my team mates almost always misses his BIH opportunities on incompletes for no other reason than being a space cadet.

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I guess we can sum it up with this old saying: You snooze you lose!!

TomWadsworth said:

A foul is a foul when you foul. Anytime I foul I call myself out and give ball in hand to my opponent. Unfortunately most people don't do that these days.

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I don't even have to be asked. I retrieve the cue ball and hand it to my opponent, regardless what's a stake. If ever comes a time that I feel the urge to revoke my integrity over something so petty as a pool game, I'll quit playing.

That said, I cannot fault another player for doing differently. Some folks stick strictly to the book, and don't mean any harm. They simply don't feel as if it's a bad thing. Who am I to judge their merit? Then there are scoundrels who cheat, lie, hide, etc. Those folks can have it, because I don't want it.

Neil said:

According to rule 1-21 #2. of the BCAPL rules, if you foul, your inning ends. So, if he knew he fouled, and kept shooting anyways, you could apply a shooting out of turn foul, or an unsportsmanship foul on him. [...].

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Yes, the situation Prad mentioned involved a shooter who fouled, admits the foul, and chose to shoot again. That's not OK and is not in fact different from scratching and then pulling the cueball out of the pocket and shooting again.

I was the TD for Prad's situation (his teamate's situation actually).

Here is the deal at Fargo Billiards

In unrefereed matches, the opponent IS NOT the referee.

Let's look at some of the consequences of thinking otherwise. If the opponent IS the referee, then the opponent should never be sitting in a chair; he should be moving around the table to get in the best position to see each shot. He should stop the shooter from shooting on occasion to look at the shot from the shooter's perspective before getting into position. He should stop the shooter from shooting if a server or patron walks between him and the shooter. And he should stop the shooter from shooting while a server asks him whether he needs ketchup with his fries. Clearly it would be obnoxious for an opponent truly to act like a referee.

So what then is the role of the opponent? The opponent, unlike a non-playing teammate or railbird, has a general obligation to pay attention, has the right to question whether a hit was legal, and has a right before the shot to request an agreed-upon third party be an ad hoc referee.

The main obligation is on the shooter. The shooter is the referee. He has an obligation to call a foul when a foul occurs. If the opponent questions a shot after the fact, the shooter has the obligation to listen, consider, make an honest assessment, and ultimately make the call. The shooter also has a general obligation on a shot that might be close to alert his opponent, who might want to request an ad hoc referee.