League timeouts: advice for team captains

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SlewFootLag

Registered
I posted this in the Ask The Instructor section so sorry for the double post...

I'm an APA team captain and oftentimes [during timeouts] have trouble giving teammates appropriate advice when speed is an integral factor, not that speed isn't important on all shots.

The 1(softest)-10(hardest) system rarely translates in the midst of a match (although 'lag speed' usually works when applicable).

So my question is...
Is it safe to say that a 30 degree cut will cause a CB energy loss of about 1/2 the speed after OB contact (with a center ball hit)? Same goes for a 15 degree cut yielding a CB energy loss of 3/4? If this is right, do ya'll think this is a good way address certain shots? How much will draw/follow impact energy loss? Also, I'm mostly talking about APA 4's and 5's... Too technical? Any other tips on managing speed issues during timeouts??? Or any interesting tips at all for getting the best out of your teammates on particular shots?
Thanks!
Dave
 
K

King T

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This might work

SlewFootLag said:
So my question is...
... Too technical? Any other tips on managing speed issues during timeouts??? Or any interesting tips at all for getting the best out of your teammates on particular shots?
Thanks!
Dave
Click to expand...
Trying to explain it during a time out is tough, you can remind them of something they practiced successfully during the time out, but trying to teach them something during a time out is tough.
 
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Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Assuming equal mass, you lose about as much energy as to how full the cue ball hits the object ball.

So if you hit it 50%, you will lose about 50% of the speed from the cue ball as it transfers about 50% of it to the object ball.

If you hit it 25% full, then you will lose about 25% of the speed as that will be transferred to the object ball and the cue ball will continue with about 75%.

So if you are 1 foot from the object ball that you are hitting 50% full and want to go 1 foot into a pocket and make the cue ball go about 2 feet after wards then you need to hit the cue ball hard enough to travel about 4 feet.
 
D

drv4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's very hard to communicate speed effectively. The best thing is to know your players and work on defining what "soft" or "hard" is to them outside of a match, so there is some kind of baseline. I usually try to focus on telling them where I want the cueball to end up and then let them pick their speed on their own. I find the less technical you are during a timeout the more effective it is. 3s and 4s will try to hard to do what you tell them, it's better for them to relax and have a general idea and let them execute the shot within their own routine. KISS principle on timeouts 99% of the time.
 
couldnthinkof01

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Too technical and hard to say without knowing the ability and confidence in a given shot for the player.
I always just say put the object ball there and the cueball here.
Your brain knows what to do, just give your best shot, its all you can do.
 
jojopiff

jojopiff

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting post. I also find telling someone how hard to hit it is difficult. But, I think if they're not getting the 1-10 system correct, don't think what you've laid out above will be any better.

Let me know when you figure it out please!!
 
Celophanewrap

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
The most effective way I've ever seen a coach communicate the speed of a shot to a young inexperienced player was in numbers 1 - 10 with 1 being very, very soft and 10 being a "Ram Shot" (ref: earlier AZ threads).
Using the numbers seemed to get the point across better than anything else I'd ever seen.
I think what a lot of coaches lose in coaching an inexperienced player is their ability to execute the shot. Regardless of what you might see as the coach you also have to be able to evaluate the players ability to do what you're asking them to do. I'll always ask a player what they are thinking and I might ask if they are comfortable with that.
The younger or inexperienced players only ever wonder how to make the ball and almost never consider that there might be another alternative that might be a little easier to execute and a higher percentage of being successful.
 
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TCIndepMo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I was an APA LO I always told players/captains the TIME OUT was for coaching, not for teaching. Also APA rule manual (bottom of page 7) says "Each Coaching - 1 minute limit" .

The entire theory of shot speed (from 1 to 5; 1 to 10; slow, medium or hard; whatever ) can really muddy up the waters for a SL 2-3 and many 4's and 5's. The coach risks just confusing an already confused shooter. Have you ever listened in while a SL 6-7 coaches a SL 2-3 on how to execute a kick shot? Results usually not pretty. Especially if they are married. LOL.

Coach the shooter on exactly what they are faced with on the table, on that shot, nothing else. Then shut up and sit down. It's not the time for a science lesson about angles, speed or how high to hold the butt end of the cue, etc. Save those details for the Saturday afternoon session on your home table in your family rec room.
 
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Barnabus McDoug

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I use lag speed. Half your lag, lag, and double your lag. With that said, I watch their lag and adjust my advise based off their results. I also try to give them the simplest form of the shot possible.

One thing I do that I've never seen anyone else do is I take the cueball if it's ball in hand and roll it on the path I want them to shoot so they can see exactly what the cue ball is supposed to do and where it's supposed to end up. This technique helps them see the shot and speed first hand.
 
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King T

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The best way to teach speed,

The best way to teach speed is to set a ball in the center of corner pocket were it cant be missed. Then set the cue ball up near the side 1/2 diamond from the rail.

Have your student shoot the ball into the pocket with a full hit on the object ball, then have them shoot the same shot in with as thin a hit as possible, tell them to observe the reaction of the cue ball in both direction and speed.

The fuller the hit the slower the reaction. This should help them understand how to control the speed of a shot based on the amount of the ball that you need to hit.
 
Celophanewrap

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
TCIndepMo said:
When I was an APA LO I always told players/captains the TIME OUT was for coaching, not for teaching. Also APA rule manual (bottom of page 7) says "Each Coaching - 1 minute limit" .
Click to expand...

You know, this whole 1 minute thing has always kinda confused me. I know there are some people that will when you call a time out they will begin counting, like 1 minute is a hard and fast rule. Actually what the manual says is that 1 minute is a guideline, so as I would interpret the word 'guideline' that would mean circa 1 minute or 1 minute ish.
Later in the manual it states that timeouts SHOULD not exceed 1 minute. I wouldn't interpret either of those statements as a hard and fast rule, more like "Lets' try and keep it to about a minute or so. Of course repeated excessive time taken would warrant a foul, but a sportsmanship type call and not a rule violation.
 
couldnthinkof01

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to add position zones for the cueball can allow for errors in speed, the lower the ability the larger the zone needed.
Basically you have to run what you brung. If you speed control isnt great on the practice table its not going to change with some secret nugget during a time out.
 
KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
The KISS protocol applies here. And ask them what they are thinking first. Lets see if they figured it out. If not, just say here's a thought, what about going this way, do you think you can do that ? If not, then just do this. If need be, tell them to hit low on cb, or stop shot, whatever, something they understand.
 
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Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
TCIndepMo said:
When I was an APA LO I always told players/captains the TIME OUT was for coaching, not for teaching. Also APA rule manual (bottom of page 7) says "Each Coaching - 1 minute limit" .

Coach the shooter on exactly what they are faced with on the table, on that shot, nothing else. Then shut up and sit down. It's not the time for a science lesson about angles, speed or how high to hold the butt end of the cue, etc. Save those details for the Saturday afternoon session on your home table in your family rec room.
Click to expand...

Man, I bet you were a horrible coach.
 
S

Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Celophanewrap said:
You know, this whole 1 minute thing has always kinda confused me. I know there are some people that will when you call a time out they will begin counting, like 1 minute is a hard and fast rule. Actually what the manual says is that 1 minute is a guideline, so as I would interpret the word 'guideline' that would mean circa 1 minute or 1 minute ish.
Later in the manual it states that timeouts SHOULD not exceed 1 minute. I wouldn't interpret either of those statements as a hard and fast rule, more like "Lets' try and keep it to about a minute or so. Of course repeated excessive time taken would warrant a foul, but a sportsmanship type call and not a rule violation.
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Agreed. It is always a guideline until you get to higher level tournaments and someone wants to complain. Then they will warn you and then start penalizing you with BIH fouls and it will stay with you the rest of the tournament.

On league nights the most that will happen is they will complain to the LO and the LO will tell you it is not good sportsmanship to do that. Then they will tell you to start shooting multiple tables per the guidelines.
 
jojopiff

jojopiff

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Skippy27 said:
Man, I bet you were a horrible coach.
Click to expand...

This place must be super boring for you since you know everything & assume you're smarter than everybody else. Most everyone of your posts are filled with arrogance. You're one of the worst posters here.

This post is meant to do one thing, degrade the person who wrote it. Are you really under the impression there's one way to "correctly" coach a player?

Let me help you out junior, the more mature you get the sooner you'll realize how few correct answers in pool, and life, there really are.
 
3

3RAILKICK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Barnabus McDoug said:
I use lag speed. Half your lag, lag, and double your lag. With that said, I watch their lag and adjust my advise based off their results. I also try to give them the simplest form of the shot possible.

One thing I do that I've never seen anyone else do is I take the cueball if it's ball in hand and roll it on the path I want them to shoot so they can see exactly what the cue ball is supposed to do and where it's supposed to end up. This technique helps them see the shot and speed first hand.
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I like that idea a lot...but it is not allowed in our in-house league.

Is this an APA league, or another well known league?


In our league:

We get two minutes to coach the player. Three "coaches" per game.....same coach each time. The player asks for the 'coach'. No cough- cough / alerts by teammates allowed.

If the rules are followed...all comments/suggestions/advice is verbal only. Some coaches have to put their hands in their pockets to avoid pointing at diamonds, flies on the wall, etc. (not just Italians talk with their hands:eek:)

The coach can't touch the cb or the table or reach out over the table pointing or touch the player, nudging him to a better alignment for the shot or safety.

The coach cannot get down on the shot to 'check out options".

The coach cannot stand in line with the kicking target like a survey crew 'stick man' using a vertical cue as the alignment rod.:angry:



The verbal-only coaching method is a challenge.


Most often:

Player: Watayathink?

Coach: Mmmm...watayoulike?

Player: I don't like anything.

Coach: Watayahate least? Shoot that...

Player: Thatswat I was thinking..;)

Coach: Cool.:D


ps: Sadly...lagging is a lost art...mostly flip it these days.
 
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TCIndepMo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, the 1 minute rule is a guideline. Otherwise you will have the other team hovering over the table with a stop watch and ready to pounce at exactly 60 seconds. You could be solving one problem (slow play) but creating a much bigger one (sportsmanship complaints all night long). I always advocated for as much common sense as possible. Results varied there. LOL.

Not sure how good a coach I was as all LOs had to give up league participation about 20-25 years ago (some exceptions made). But I lasted 36 years as a LO so apparently was doing something right.

Now retired and loving it.
 
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Barnabus McDoug

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
3RAILKICK said:
[/COLOR][/U][/B]


I like that idea a lot...but it is not allowed in our in-house league.

Is this an APA league, or another well known league?


In our league:

We get two minutes to coach the player. Three "coaches" per game.....same coach each time. The player asks for the 'coach'. No cough- cough / alerts by teammates allowed.

If the rules are followed...all comments/suggestions/advice is verbal only. Some coaches have to put their hands in their pockets to avoid pointing at diamonds, flies on the wall, etc. (not just Italians talk with their hands:eek:)

The coach can't touch the cb or the table or reach out over the table pointing or touch the player, nudging him to a better alignment for the shot or safety.

The coach cannot get down on the shot to 'check out options".

The coach cannot stand in line with the kicking target like a survey crew 'stick man' using a vertical cue as the alignment rod.:angry:



The verbal-only coaching method is a challenge.


Most often:

Player: Watayathink?

Coach: Mmmm...watayoulike?

Player: I don't like anything.

Coach: Watayahate least? Shoot that...

Player: Thatswat I was thinking..;)

Coach: Cool.:D


ps: Sadly...lagging is a lost art...mostly flip it these days.
Click to expand...


Man that sounds like a terrible experience. I'm actually not a fan of what all the couches are allowed to do in my league, but, verbal only would be very frustrating. Also, three time outs a game? At that point you're not even playing your opponent, you're playing the couch. My league is in fact APA. I've used my technique at least once every league night, during playoffs, during cities, I've never been told it's not allowed.
 
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