I’m making my first cue, I did a butterfly splice style with bem into cocobolo. I turned it down and left about 80-100 thousands over size. I left it alone for a month or so and I was going to take the final cuts today and I noticed I have 20- 30 thou runout in the middle of the but after I recentered it., it was worse before recentering. My question is should I wait longer to finish it as it may continue to move? Do you think it’s done moving? I was told the wood was aged approximately 30 years? Any help or advice would be great!! Thanks !
Cue butt runout
- Thread starter Mike81
- Start date
Buying old wood does not mean it won't move- it just means it is old. Since wood often moves during the drying process, buying dry wood over green wood is a good first step to save time and waste.
If it has been in a humidity-controlled environment it should be dry and ready to work, but once you cut into it you are releasing stress just like any other piece of wood. This release of stress can lead to movement, which is why small cuts are taken over time.
Thanks for the advice guys. Hopefully it will stay straight after I take a light cut. The only reason I removed as much wood as I did was to make sure the veneers looked ok before going any further. Well they did and now I may be screwed but I guess this is part of learning
Age is nice since stress dissipates over time to some extent though not completely.
However, age means nothing to movement if the MC is not known. It could have laid for 30 years in a barn in the mid-Atlantic states where the equilibrium MC is over 12% (not good for a product that will be used in doors). Or it could have laid in a shop in NM or AZ where it is "bone dry" (under 5% mc) whereupon it will pick up moisture and move a bit when you take it to, say, a humid southeastern state like FLA.
Point being, wood moves with small changes in MC. "Around" 7 - 8% seems to work well for most wooden products before finishing them. They can gain or lose a percent or so over the year with changes in the climate, and not really move perceptibly if the grain was chosen well. This is why people like GB generally did not use "showy" or highly figured woods for structural components. He was a long time woodworker before starting to make cues. OTOH, now the market favors the most dramatic wood and construction, so cuemakers have to manage techniques to accommodate the potentially less stable wood, including coring.
All that said, your wood is moving for 2 reasons, and the second reason might be one way, or it might be the other :grin:
1.) cutting it releases stress, the wood moves as it "relaxes"
2.a.) the wood might not have been very dry. It moves as it dries.
2.b.) the wood might have been drier than your shop is. It moves as it picks up moisture from a humid environment.
The movement will be worse across a long glued joint like a splice if one piece of wood was drier than the other at the time they were glued.
Not usually a factor, but a complex glue up with multiple pieces and titebond can include enough moisture in a joint that it takes a couple weeks to really equalize.
If you live in a hot humid climate & don't run a de-humidifier in the summer, say if the shop is in a basement, this can be a real factor. Though if that is where cues are stored and the pool table is set up, it won't necessarily be "bad" until the cue is taken somewhere drier for "a long time". If you sell cues, it might become necessary to start controlling the shop relative humidity to about 45 - 50% "all the time" & meter wood parts before and during the machining process.
smt
However, age means nothing to movement if the MC is not known. It could have laid for 30 years in a barn in the mid-Atlantic states where the equilibrium MC is over 12% (not good for a product that will be used in doors). Or it could have laid in a shop in NM or AZ where it is "bone dry" (under 5% mc) whereupon it will pick up moisture and move a bit when you take it to, say, a humid southeastern state like FLA.
Point being, wood moves with small changes in MC. "Around" 7 - 8% seems to work well for most wooden products before finishing them. They can gain or lose a percent or so over the year with changes in the climate, and not really move perceptibly if the grain was chosen well. This is why people like GB generally did not use "showy" or highly figured woods for structural components. He was a long time woodworker before starting to make cues. OTOH, now the market favors the most dramatic wood and construction, so cuemakers have to manage techniques to accommodate the potentially less stable wood, including coring.
All that said, your wood is moving for 2 reasons, and the second reason might be one way, or it might be the other :grin:
1.) cutting it releases stress, the wood moves as it "relaxes"
2.a.) the wood might not have been very dry. It moves as it dries.
2.b.) the wood might have been drier than your shop is. It moves as it picks up moisture from a humid environment.
The movement will be worse across a long glued joint like a splice if one piece of wood was drier than the other at the time they were glued.
Not usually a factor, but a complex glue up with multiple pieces and titebond can include enough moisture in a joint that it takes a couple weeks to really equalize.
If you live in a hot humid climate & don't run a de-humidifier in the summer, say if the shop is in a basement, this can be a real factor. Though if that is where cues are stored and the pool table is set up, it won't necessarily be "bad" until the cue is taken somewhere drier for "a long time". If you sell cues, it might become necessary to start controlling the shop relative humidity to about 45 - 50% "all the time" & meter wood parts before and during the machining process.
smt
The internal stress in the wood, really want give a damn if you seal it with epoxy or not.
Turn, wait, turn and wait some more is the only way I'm afraid. Some woods can handle rougher cuts and more heat than others, but time and a stable enviroment is key to success.
Turn, wait, turn and wait some more is the only way I'm afraid. Some woods can handle rougher cuts and more heat than others, but time and a stable enviroment is key to success.
Buy a moisture meter .
Also, I think you need to have a basic understanding of seasoning .
Recentering makes it worse . Instead of taking some off the weak side, you favored it and took some off the strong side .
Also, I think you need to have a basic understanding of seasoning .
Recentering makes it worse . Instead of taking some off the weak side, you favored it and took some off the strong side .
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Speaking of the passing of one of our greats I remember a conversation deekmon and and I had and he specifically mentioned having shafts hanging in his shop in the past and watching them swing up to 80 thou with the seasons and this was well seasoned wood......fwiw
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Yes joey I think your right. I have little understanding of seasoned wood. I’m all ears if your willing to explain. I was under the impression if it’s aged there would be little movement, I was wrong
Would the shafts ever return to their original state?
Seasoned woods would mean they are ready for some cutting.
They do not mean they will never move .
Aged woods just means they are old . If the seller was even telling the truth .
Seasoning starts in your shop.
Weigh them them in grams . Let them sit for months and check the weight again. Weigh them during mild seasons when temperature and humidity are good.
If you live in humid place, you will need a dehumidifier . If you live in very dry climate, you will need a humidifier .
Seasoned woods still need to be cut right. Preferably center grain has the two center holes .
Most cue makers core now .
To me, this is the most accurate way to know when the wood has stabilized...when it doesn't lose weight for 6 months straight. Then it is to make it round, then weight it again, and again, until it stays the same for a period of time. You, like me, are in an area of the country where it goes from 15% in winter to 89% then down to 56% then back to 89% during the summer. That makes wood move like crazy It will find a happy place eventually, but some woods are more stubborn than others. I store mine in my basement, with the most recent pieces being placed close to the floor and as time goes by, with weigh ins, they move up to higher ground, until they stay at the same weight for 6 months. To me, having an air conditioned shop and dehumidifier running, it babies the wood, and creates a false environment that once the cue is done, and sent even down the road to a nearby town....it may have movement as it was in a controlled environment and is now out in the wild. Grain selection helps, and coring helps...but proper seasoning of the wood, and the cue thru the build process is the biggest thing, imo.
Dave
This makes perfect sense! I understand now! Thanks Joey
Thanks Dave, the humidity in pa has very extreme changes that can happen almost immediately out of the blue and I’m sure that’s not helping. I appreciate the helpful advice.
I have a new found respect for all the guys on here making custom cues. Not that I didn’t before but when you buy a stick you expect it to be straight and nearly perfect maybe even take it for granted. Never realized the hours and experience it takes to make it right.
I’m sure all of us will find ourselves smiling at your realization for most have no idea. Even to be a bad cuemaker is hard work and one has to deal constantly.
I was going to answer your question about “does it ever return to normal state”
Well what is it’s normal state? When is it’s normal state or where is also another question.....this is the stuff I deal with sending a cue or a duck call or if I made a very nice piece of furniture to say Las Vegas, or lauri and co over at Southwest send a cue down to the swamp.
They all move.
Bringing up conversations with again with Dennis.....I have one recorded where we speak of shafts and he specifically states in all his many years and thousands of cues and shafts he had built and seen of put in his machine to work on from another maker....he maybe seen 1 not brand new shaft that read .000 on the TIR between centers. I’ve seen one and possibly a second but I didn’t get to measure it.
One of the biggest things is the seals in the finished product and keeping that end product sealed so what little moisture changes in the new climate occur that any swings in the product occurs extremely slow. I know a lot of musicians and they are often told to “climatize” a guitar that’s new keep it in case for while after receiving to condition it to new place without shocking it.
As mentioned (or at least I think joey did) the thing about old wood isn’t the dry part it’s that as it dries it becomes denser, the cellular structure compacts in as it loses moisture.....and wood can loose too much moisture and become brittle for example. If messing with highly spalted woods the dryer they are the more apt to split or fall apart it is.
Many woods liked maple....especially in cues haven’t seen much less used actual heartwood. It’s one of the few woods that the sap wood is as prized or moreso than the heartwood ( I prefer the darker heartwood myself)
You also have the fullsplice handful that do their thing and guys like myself and ERIC crisp find and mill our own “exotic” American hardwoods....and we got some kick ass gorgeously figured and dense woods in North America most just don’t know it or have ever heard of many of the species.
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