English on the break

av84fun · Jan 3, 2008

klockdoc said:
Thank you very much for your response. This brings up another question though. Are you saying then that you cannot shoot a "level" shot unless it is a center ball hit?

Just to tide you over until he responds for himself, I would just point out that he has stated his agreement with Patrick, in effect, that you cannot shoot a "level" shot AT ALL on any shot where the cue stick must pass over the rail.

In other words, only shots where the cb is 5 ft. +/- from a cushion and therefore, would not hit the cushion during the stroke can be stroked "level" except for shots he suggested were "contrived."

Regards,
Jim

Patrick Johnson · Jan 4, 2008

Bob:
it may be that what you are really interested in is the direction the tip is moving at the instant of contact

This is the definition of "level cue" that makes most sense to me (although I'm thinking about your comment regarding "downward squirt"). It directly addresses the practical effect of "hitting level" and avoids issues about which line or axis in the cue should be level.

... in which case severe elbow drop will cause the tip to move more horizontally.

Even without elbow drop the tip moves horizontally at the bottom of a pendulum stroke, right? But with a normal grip (fingers under the butt) the bottom edge of the butt must be at least, say, 3/4" above the cloth (my fingers), so the cue's centerline must be at least, say, 1 3/8" above the cloth (my 1 1/4" butt). This means that the lowest possible hit with a level cue is just below that (accounting for tip curvature) - say, 1 1/4" above the cloth. In other words, you can't hit centerball with a normal grip and level cue anywhere on the table.

However, as your back hand is moving downward during the first part of your stroke (or as your elbow drops) the tip can be moving horizontally even when it's below the level of your bridge, so it is possible to get a "horizontal hit" at centerball even when the cue stick is still angled slightly downward. For practical purposes (avoiding downward force and swerve) I think "horizontal hit" is the important feature.

pj
chgo

Mr. Wilson · Jan 4, 2008

Jim, ( AV84FUN )

I hope you listen, as I am getting multiple complaints on the tone you have adopted again.

You've been disciplined before, so please understand that the next step as a course of action will be significantly more severe.

You will lose your privileges for a year with my next message to you regarding complaints.

Up to you.

Dave

Patrick Johnson · Jan 4, 2008

Me:
...I'm not sure what level "to the ball" means here).

klockdoc:
Level "to the ball" was referring to the centerline of the cue stick if that was being used to describe level. Being that the tip would have to be raised to become level with the center of the butt. Make sense now? (sometimes I have a hard time explaining with words)...

Yes, I understand you now. And I apologize for presuming to speak for Bob in my earlier post.

Bob:
I think the axis of the cue (or centerline) is the start, but even that may not be quite right. I think for the cue to be "level," it must not shoot the ball down into the cloth, and if you use follow with the axis perfectly level, the cue ball will be "squirted" into the cloth.

klockdoc:
Thank you very much for your response. This brings up another question though. Are you saying then that you cannot shoot a "level" shot unless it is a center ball hit?

Presuming to speak for Bob again (when will I ever learn?):

"Downward squirt" acts just like sideways squirt, so angling the cue a little upward would counteract it. But remember, it's impossible to hit any normal shot with a level cue, so hitting upward is out of the question.

To answer your question directly, hitting centerball would avoid "downward squirt", but your cue must be angled downward at least a little to hit centerball (even if your butt isn't over the rail, assuming a normal grip), so there would be downward force even without downward squirt.

pj
chgo

klockdoc · Jan 4, 2008

Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, I understand you now. And I apologize for presuming to speak for Bob in my earlier post.

No problem. Good to hear others views also

Patrick Johnson said:
But remember, it's impossible to hit any normal shot with a level cue, so hitting upward is out of the question.

To answer your question directly, hitting centerball would avoid "downward squirt", but your cue must be angled downward at least a little to hit centerball (even if your butt isn't over the rail, assuming a normal grip), so there would be downward force even without downward squirt.

pj
chgo

Now I was thinking about the level cue synopsis last night. In what you say above and what I got from Bob Jewett's posts, you are saying that the grip hand will actually interfere with the cue being level, even if the shot is being made out in the bed of the table. (where the cue is not over the rail) Correct? ( I think Bob said you would be dragging your knuckles..

)

So here is what I was thinking about. I am going to use the baseline as opposed to the axis line in order to make the experiment easier.

If you had a 5 foot carpenter's level and made a mark at one end of the level 6 mm or approx 1/4 inch up from the base. Now position that mark at the center of the cue ball, extend the level over the rail, you should be able to use the level then to see where the bubble is off..

Then, if not level, raise the mark up to a position whereas the level "is level" and record that spot as the lowest spot to be able to hit on the cue ball using a "level" cue when the butt extends over the rail.

[I am sure it is going to be the same position as it would if you freeze a ball to the rail.] Does this sound logical?

CaptainJR · Jan 4, 2008

WOW, I sure did miss a lot here. I didn't take time to read it all.

I noticed some question about me indicating that the harder you shoot the more deflection you get. So I had suggested that I think it is better to forget about english on the break because accuracy is more important on the break.

As far as the deflection is concerned. I see deflection isn't the term you all seem to like. What I'm talking about when I say deflection is how much left or right the cue ball goes compared to the line of the cue stick, regardless of what causes it. In the last 30 years of playing I have learnt that the harder I hit a shot, the more I have to compensate for deflection. This would be for all ranges of speed up to a certain point. Let's say you have speed rating from 1 to 100. 1 being the cue ball rolls about an inch. 100 being your hard break shot. During normal shooting I would guess you might use 1 through 65. 66 through 95 probably very rarely get used (if you are using them, give some thought to stopping using them). 96 through 100 for breaking. I think through the entire range from 1 to 65 the amount of deflection changes according to the speed of your stoke.

The original point still holds true. When breaking your are getting the maximum amount of deflection that you can muster up. That makes it very difficult to be accurate. When I hit the break I want to be right on the button, Perfect hit on the head ball. No margin for error. Do I do that ever time? LOL, not hardly, but I sure would like to.

About this "can you hit with a level stick" issue. Hmmm, never thought about it much. After giving this considerable thought (LOL) I'll say this.

I don't think so. (but I would not bet my life on it) For example, if I were a betting man I might bet I could do it at my local bar. After getting the bet I'd walk over to the bar stick rack and find the stick with the biggest bow in it, put the bow up, make a shot and collect my money! 8>)

Back to "I don't think so". First off I'll determine three things that can't change on any given table.

1. The height of the side of the table (notice I didn't say rail).
2. The size of the cue ball.
3. What level is. Level is level. When you move level it is still level.

Also for this I will consider the bottom of the cue stick as what we are trying to get level, not the center of the stick.

Keeping 1,2 and 3 in mind. As far as trying to make a level stroke there is no difference between having the cue ball at the rail, 1 inch from the rail, three inches from the rail, eight inches from the rail or two feet from the rail. For the stick to be level you probably have the stick touching the side of the table and the tip would be the same height regardless of how close or far out on the table you put it.

Now that this is determined all you have to do is put the cue ball against the rail, try to put your cue stick in a level position and see if you can make a solid hit on the cue ball. I think you will find that this is not the kind of hit you want.

Patrick Johnson · Jan 4, 2008

klockdoc:
... you are saying that the grip hand will actually interfere with the cue being level, even if the shot is being made out in the bed of the table. (where the cue is not over the rail) Correct?

Yes, but it doesn't necessarily interfere with every shot. For instance, my fingers are 3/4" thick (fairly slim) and my butt is 1 1/4" thick, so the closest the centerline of my butt can get to the cloth is 3/4" + 5/8" = 1 3/8". So I can hit about 1/4" above centerball (minus a little for tip curvature = say 3/16") with a level cue. If your fingers are fatter or slimmer your mileage will vary.

However, a level centerline isn't necessarily required for a "level hit". That can happen if the bottom edge of the stick is level, even if the centerline is not level. So the lowest I can get for a level hit is determined by my bridge height, which is a minimum of 3/4" (open bridge). My 3/4" bridge plus half the diameter of my tip (3/16") means I can get a level hit at about 1" above the cloth (15/16" + a little for tip curvature). Also, my open bridge is low (my closed bridge is at least 1 1/4" high) and my tip is narrow ("normal" tips are about 1/2"), so these are pretty minimal numbers.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Jan 4, 2008

CaptainJR:
The original point still holds true. When breaking your are getting the maximum amount of deflection that you can muster up.

That's right. My comments about speed, squirt and swerve were nitpicks about terminology.

As far as trying to make a level stroke there is no difference between having the cue ball at the rail, 1 inch from the rail, three inches from the rail, eight inches from the rail or two feet from the rail. For the stick to be level you probably have the stick touching the side of the table and the tip would be the same height regardless of how close or far out on the table you put it.

This is true as long as you're talking about the bottom edge of the stick (so as the ball gets farther from the rail the increasing thickness of the stick isn't a factor) and unless you need to get your grip hand fingers between the butt and the rail. I think you're right that this is the right way to think of this question.

Now that this is determined all you have to do is put the cue ball against the rail, try to put your cue stick in a level position and see if you can make a solid hit on the cue ball. I think you will find that this is not the kind of hit you want.

I think you're right. And I'm going to try to get to an Olhausen dealer today to see if they really have rails no higher than cushion noses. I doubt it. I know that the tops of Brunswick rails are higher than the whole cushion and Diamonds are the same height as the top of the cushion, which is higher than the nose.

pj
chgo

klockdoc · Jan 4, 2008

Patrick Johnson said:
I think you're right. And I'm going to try to get to an Olhausen dealer today to see if they really have rails no higher than cushion noses. I doubt it. I know that the tops of Brunswick rails are higher than the whole cushion and Diamonds are the same height as the top of the cushion, which is higher than the nose.

pj
chgo

This is what got me thinking the other day. There was a debate on how high the rails were on different tables. Noticing your diagram with the 9 ball (posted on pg 5, I think) and where the nose cushion hit the ball, I would think regardless of the rail height, the nose cushion would be consistent on any table (correct me if I am wrong) any size. The nose cushion is hitting the upper section of the stripe. So, any way you look at it, when the butt extends across the rail, it could be no lower than the nose cushion if the baseline of the cue stick is level.

Which would in fact make the hit on the cue ball above center.

Patrick Johnson · Jan 4, 2008

BPG24:
... all I know is from what I have read and my own experimenting... And I don't care for people to tell me why what I figured out isn't true...

Flex:
Hear, hear! Well said!

So if you happen to be wrong, you'd rather stay that way?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Jan 4, 2008

klockdoc:
... I would think regardless of the rail height, the nose cushion would be consistent on any table (correct me if I am wrong) any size.

I think so. The rules specify that the nose of the cushion must be 62.5% to 64.5% of a ball's height above the table surface (within 1/32" of 1 7/16"). That's a very tight range.

...So, any way you look at it, when the butt extends across the rail, it could be no lower than the nose cushion if the baseline of the cue stick is level.

Correct.

The nose cushion is hitting the upper section of the stripe. ... Which would in fact make the hit on the cue ball above center.

Yes. The bottom edge of the cue (and its tip) would be a minimum of 1 7/16" high, which is 5/16" above centerball. Allowing a little extra room for tip curvature, the lowest possible successful hit would be, say, 3/8" above centerball, or about 1/8" from miscue range. As you said, this would be on a table with rails no higher than the cushion nose, which I've never (to my knowledge) seen. So if the rail (or the top of the cushion, if it's higher than the nose) is 1/8" or more higher than the nose, you can't get a successful "level hit" on a ball with any part of the cue over the rail.

This is all approximate to at least some small degree, but it's close enough to draw the important conclusion: it's more or less impossible to prevent at least some amount of swerve on any sidespin shot (unless it's short or fast). Given the effect of "downward squirt" (that Bob mentioned), this is true even if you manage somehow to get a level hit.

pj
chgo

av84fun · Jan 4, 2008

Mr. Wilson said:
Jim, ( AV84FUN )

I hope you listen, as I am getting multiple complaints on the tone you have adopted again.

You've been disciplined before, so please understand that the next step as a course of action will be significantly more severe.

You will lose your privileges for a year with my next message to you regarding complaints.

Up to you.

Dave

Understood and agreed. I will just have to disregard rude posts initiated against me regarding which, I will do a better job of reporting to you.

And perhaps the numerous people who have been complimentary of my contribtions to the forum will review, in fairness, the following posts in this thread and to hit the "rep button" of their choice, in the context that rudeness is a violation of forum rules.

#s 17,22,26,64 and 65

Regards,
Jim

Jude Rosenstock · Jan 4, 2008

I can't believe this thread is still active.

I always use English on my breaks, especially when I'm having lunch with a coworker.

av84fun · Jan 4, 2008

CaptainJR said:
WOW, I sure did miss a lot here. I didn't take time to read it all.

I noticed some question about me indicating that the harder you shoot the more deflection you get. So I had suggested that I think it is better to forget about english on the break because accuracy is more important on the break.

As far as the deflection is concerned. I see deflection isn't the term you all seem to like. What I'm talking about when I say deflection is how much left or right the cue ball goes compared to the line of the cue stick, regardless of what causes it. In the last 30 years of playing I have learnt that the harder I hit a shot, the more I have to compensate for deflection. This would be for all ranges of speed up to a certain point. Let's say you have speed rating from 1 to 100. 1 being the cue ball rolls about an inch. 100 being your hard break shot. During normal shooting I would guess you might use 1 through 65. 66 through 95 probably very rarely get used (if you are using them, give some thought to stopping using them). 96 through 100 for breaking. I think through the entire range from 1 to 65 the amount of deflection changes according to the speed of your stoke.

The original point still holds true. When breaking your are getting the maximum amount of deflection that you can muster up. That makes it very difficult to be accurate. When I hit the break I want to be right on the button, Perfect hit on the head ball. No margin for error. Do I do that ever time? LOL, not hardly, but I sure would like to.

About this "can you hit with a level stick" issue. Hmmm, never thought about it much. After giving this considerable thought (LOL) I'll say this.

I don't think so. (but I would not bet my life on it) For example, if I were a betting man I might bet I could do it at my local bar. After getting the bet I'd walk over to the bar stick rack and find the stick with the biggest bow in it, put the bow up, make a shot and collect my money! 8>)

Back to "I don't think so". First off I'll determine three things that can't change on any given table.

1. The height of the side of the table (notice I didn't say rail).
2. The size of the cue ball.
3. What level is. Level is level. When you move level it is still level.

Also for this I will consider the bottom of the cue stick as what we are trying to get level, not the center of the stick.

Keeping 1,2 and 3 in mind. As far as trying to make a level stroke there is no difference between having the cue ball at the rail, 1 inch from the rail, three inches from the rail, eight inches from the rail or two feet from the rail. For the stick to be level you probably have the stick touching the side of the table and the tip would be the same height regardless of how close or far out on the table you put it.

Now that this is determined all you have to do is put the cue ball against the rail, try to put your cue stick in a level position and see if you can make a solid hit on the cue ball. I think you will find that this is not the kind of hit you want.

"In the last 30 years of playing I have learnt that the harder I hit a shot, the more I have to compensate for deflection. "

I hear what you are saying. The scientific experiments tend to show that "squirt" which is a term that I think Robert Byrne coined to shorten up "cue stick induced deflection" does not vary with speed.

However, I share your doubts about that...at least on very soft shots. At a speed sufficient to send the cb from the spot to the head rail, I experience no VISIBLE squirt.

But I do believe that there is SOME speed within the range of possible speeds, where squirt is maximized and does not increase with increasing speed.

I say "visible" because there is a tendency toward "paralysis by analysis" and a portion of the physics related to shooting pool is so minor as to be irrelevant to actually shooting pool.

"3. What level is. Level is level. When you move level it is still level."

That's where the problem lies...in defining what "level" means.

1. If the first foot of the cue which is essentially a cylinder is level, is the rest of the cue level? Bob Jewett says no. He asserts that it is the centerline of the cue that determines whether it is level. And if you lay your cue on the table, because it is conical in shape, you will see that the centerline of the cue rises from the tip to the butt...so you would have to raise the tip somewhat, in order to orient that centerline to be level with the table.

In my view, that is one of the areas where "paralysis by analysis" may come into play. I would be surprised to see any research that suggests there would be a meaningful variation in the outcome of actual pool shots based on stroking the cue with the bottom of the shaft being level vs. the centerline of the cue being level.

You and I agree on that.

"Now that this is determined all you have to do is put the cue ball against the rail, try to put your cue stick in a level position and see if you can make a solid hit on the cue ball. I think you will find that this is not the kind of hit you want"

On my Olhausen...which admittedly, has a total cushion height slightly lower than some other tables, I just stroked "level" by your definition and mine, and sent the CB 3.5 table lengths...repeatedly, without miscueing.

Then, I used a slightly UPWARDLY tilted cue and didn't miscue until attempting to send the CB more than 2.5 table lengths.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun · Jan 4, 2008

I think you're right. And I'm going to try to get to an Olhausen dealer today to see if they really have rails no higher than cushion noses. I doubt it. I know that the tops of Brunswick rails are higher than the whole cushion and Diamonds are the same height as the top of the cushion, which is higher than the nose.

As I have posted, the top rail height on my Olhausen is slightly higher than the nose.

In addition, in consulting the Mechanic forum here, I find that Olhausen does not use an ACTUAL K-66 profile...but rather, a profile that is "like K-66"

The response I got is copied below.

Brunswick/Diamond, and most other rails are made 1 3/4" thick, whereas Olhausen's rails are 1 1/2" thick. When the cushion height is at 1 7/16" nose to slate, that is only a 1/16" of an inch below the thickness of the Olhausen rail, so the cushion is going to be more flat to the rail. On the Brunswick/Diamond tables the rails are actually 5/16" of an inch higher than the nose of the cushions, which gives the appearance of having the cushions at a downward angle, but correct for that kind of cushion rubber, being K55 and K66. The Olhausen accufast rubber is only K66 like, in that under the cushion and up to the nose of the cushion, it's like K66, but it's mounted on a different bevel on the sub-rail which is why it's NOT interchangeable with normal K66 cushions. The only way you could install accufast cushions on a Diamond table is if you ran the rails through a planner and lowered the thickness of the rail to 1 1/2" and re-beveled the sub-rail to fit the accufast cushions. If you wanted to install K66 or K55 cushions on an Olhausen table, you'd have to build up the bottom of the rails by 1/4" of an inch, re-bevel the sub-rails to the correct bevel that would fit the cushion rubber being attached. There is a major difference between the cushions, and all three are NOT interchangeable without some major rail changes.

Patrick Johnson · Jan 4, 2008

At a speed sufficient to send the cb from the spot to the head rail, I experience no VISIBLE squirt.

Do you experience visible swerve? Do you think they're both absent?

If the first foot of the cue which is essentially a cylinder is level, is the rest of the cue level? Bob Jewett says no.

This must be a misunderstanding. I don't think Bob means this.

He asserts that it is the centerline of the cue that determines whether it is level.

And this is why. The surfaces and the centerline are parallel in the cylindrical part of the shaft (the "pro taper" part), so if one is level then the other is too. I'm sure Bob knows this.

On my Olhausen...which admittedly, has a total cushion height slightly lower than some other tables, I just stroked "level" by your definition and mine, and sent the CB 3.5 table lengths...repeatedly, without miscueing.

Then, I used a slightly UPWARDLY tilted cue and didn't miscue until attempting to send the CB more than 2.5 table lengths.

I'm still skeptical, but I'll look at some Olhausens before commenting further.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Jan 4, 2008

it's like K66, but it's mounted on a different bevel on the sub-rail

This could make the top of the cushion more level than a K66, which might support the idea that a level hit can be made lower. I'll check it out.

pj
chgo

av84fun · Jan 4, 2008

Patrick Johnson said:
Do you experience visible swerve? Do you think they're both absent?

I struck the cb as level as possible and on its horizontal centerline so there was no swerve.

av84fun · Jan 4, 2008

Patrick Johnson said:
This could make the top of the cushion more level than a K66, which might support the idea that a level hit can be made lower. I'll check it out.

pj
chgo

That is what I have been trying to tell you. I would not intentionally mislead you.

CaptainJR · Jan 4, 2008

av84fun said:
On my Olhausen...which admittedly, has a total cushion height slightly lower than some other tables, I just stroked "level" by your definition and mine, and sent the CB 3.5 table lengths...repeatedly, without miscueing.

Then, I used a slightly UPWARDLY tilted cue and didn't miscue until attempting to send the CB more than 2.5 table lengths.

Regards,
Jim

I can't disagree because it is your table. I know that I have never played on a table that you could do that. That is why I figured I was settling it. Because anyone that has ever shot pool much has had to shoot off the rail more than they want to. When you are doing it on any table I've ever played a rail shot on, you have to jack up at least slightly.

r,
JR

English on the break

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