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  (#46)
garczar
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Here ya go....................... - 08-20-2017, 02:55 PM

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showth...=275141&page=2 Post #23 You're welcome.
  
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  (#47)
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08-20-2017, 02:58 PM

These guys. Every single topic. They both sit there and make silly arguments. Why don't they avoid each other? It's like a sick obsession these two have. I don't get it. The table bank different because of the angles of the cushions. Yes of course the cushions play a part. But if you changed the cushions on either table it won't necessarily make them bank the same.

That's the simple answer.

The even simpler answer is adjust.

The problem is diamond not Brunswick has been doing this for a century. They set the standard. Not Diamond.

So Diamond is doing it wrong. Period.


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  (#48)
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08-20-2017, 03:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by garczar View Post
thanks gaczar
i also found this post by mark gregory implicating the rails too
ie artemis vs superspeed
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpo...57&postcount=5
so it seems to me its the angle of the nose to the playing surface and the rail ie artemis vs superspeed is the answer
icbw
correct me if thats wrong someone in the know
otherwise thats my take
thank you to all who responded
  
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  (#49)
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08-20-2017, 04:51 PM

IMO, the reason is Diamond did not copy the GC rail, exactly, like they should have. Same wood, same wood dimensions (angle/height/width, etc), same rubber profile (shape), same rubber material, and same rubber construction. Hell, they should have went to the same rubber supplier as Brunswick!

No one every complained that the GC cushion played wrong (unless the rubber was bad from age).

Yet, half the people complain that a Diamond rail, in perfect condition, plays wrong.
  
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  (#50)
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08-20-2017, 04:59 PM

This thread just reinforces why I'm sending my rails to Mark. They were converted to Artemis and I believe they should be Superspeeds. I don't understand why you would want to try and make a Gold Crown play like a Diamond. If you want a Diamond buy a Diamond. If you want a Gold Crown buy a Gold Crown.
  
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  (#51)
Texas Carom Club
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08-20-2017, 05:13 PM

And I don't feel like everything needs to be set in stone and done like THIS , I don't want this table to play like that one

As he said ADJUST
lots of better player's than me use the diamond system in 3c with only one kind of English

While I'm much lower level, and can't use systems
I just feel it out, with intuition , not bound,
No systems, I use what English I feel will get me there
I use every part of the ball that doesn't miscue
When I miss by alot, it's usually because I just can't envision a path and just kind of wing it

Otherwise, when I miss it's not by a whole lot,


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  (#52)
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08-20-2017, 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
A. (lengthen) topspin -- when an object ball rolls into the cushion, it has topspin. Some of that forward spin can remain just after the bounce (that is, the ball is coming back, but it is still spinning forward a bit.) This leads to the object ball curving back toward the rail in a masse-like effect. The amount of topspin that remains will depend on the slickness of the rail cloth as well as perhaps the profile/height. Also the stickier the bed cloth, the sooner after the bounce this happens and the bigger the apparent effect. This effect would be really big on new rail cloth and old bed cloth. [Banks hit hard come off shorter primarily because this effect is missing--the hard-hit object ball slides into the rail instead of rolling into it]
I suspect another factor with topspin is that "softer" cushions degrade topspin more effectively due to the increased friction from the larger contact patch as well as the increased contact time and this in turn would obviously have some affect on the rebound angle for balls that were rolling when they struck the cushion.
  
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  (#53)
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08-21-2017, 09:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
D. (shorten) -- the crunched cushion wanting to spit balls straight out -- I don't know if this effect is real or not. My tendency is to think it is more myth than reality. I'd be interested to hear what Dave A or Bob J think.
I call this effect "rail throwback." The technical term is the transverse coefficient of restitution. As you point out, there are many effects working together (and against each other) in complicated ways. Luckily, players don't need to think about or even be aware of the complicated physics effects.

The height and angle of the cushion nose are critical (as is the springiness of the cushion material). Also, a fast/slick cloth plays very differently than a sticky/slow cloth.

For those interested, the bank and kick effects resource page summarizes the most important effects to take into consideration during actual play.

Regards,
Dave

Last edited by dr_dave; 08-21-2017 at 01:19 PM.
  
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  (#54)
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08-21-2017, 09:51 AM

What I want to know is why in a room full of Tables no two will play the same as all of the others.

Shouldn't there be a standard that all tables should be calibrated to?

Shouldn't all tables of the same brand and model play the same anywhere and everywhere you go to play?


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  (#55)
Texas Carom Club
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08-21-2017, 10:48 AM

Tables don't set themselves up
And they don't change out thier cloth on thier own either


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  (#56)
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08-21-2017, 01:03 PM

I have Artemis on my GC and it does not bank short, or at least not as short as a red label Diamond.
The reason the red label Diamonds bank short is the sub-rail angle, the side of the cushion that attaches to the table is different. The nose is rolled over to make the nose height the same but the angle where the cushion mounts to the table is different.

So the easy answer could be explained as easy as rail thickness but I think you could have equal thickness rails and still fudge the mounting side of the cushion and have correct nose height.

I will say the easy answer is the angle the cushion mounts to the table affects bank angle.


Is this correct Glen????
  
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  (#57)
seven_7days
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08-21-2017, 01:24 PM

Every table I play on banks short...or long...




...I'm not very good.


  
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  (#58)
garczar
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08-21-2017, 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastone371 View Post
I have Artemis on my GC and it does not bank short, or at least not as short as a red label Diamond.
The reason the red label Diamonds bank short is the sub-rail angle, the side of the cushion that attaches to the table is different. The nose is rolled over to make the nose height the same but the angle where the cushion mounts to the table is different.

So the easy answer could be explained as easy as rail thickness but I think you could have equal thickness rails and still fudge the mounting side of the cushion and have correct nose height.

I will say the easy answer is the angle the cushion mounts to the table affects bank angle.


Is this correct Glen????
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showth...=275141&page=2 post#23 Glen explains it.
  
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  (#59)
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08-21-2017, 02:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by seven_7days View Post
Every table I play on banks short...or long...




...I'm not very good.
Same,

But like someone's sig here says,
Pool and sex are 2 things you can he bad at and still have a lot of fun


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  (#60)
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08-21-2017, 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
I suspect another factor with topspin is that "softer" cushions degrade topspin more effectively due to the increased friction from the larger contact patch as well as the increased contact time and this in turn would obviously have some affect on the rebound angle for balls that were rolling when they struck the cushion.
That could be true, but I will point out that the usual situation for friction is that the increased contact area does NOT lead to more friction force.

If you think of dragging a 2X4 over carpet. The pulling force is the same whether it is on the "2" side or the "4" side. Twice as much contact area on the "4" side, but half the weight per square inch--and those things cancel.


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