Can you seal a carbon fiber shaft?

gunzby · Jan 24, 2019

I recently bought a prime m shaft and really like it. The only issue I'm having is that the surface feels like raw wood. I've sealed my own shafts for years so I'm used to my shafts being far smoother.

From what I've looked up on carbon fiber it says that its chemical and heat resistant. I'd guess that means it can handle a lacquer type sealant and the heat produced from burnishing the sealant in.

Just wanted to hear thoughts before doing anything. I wasn't going to sand it at all. I'd just clean it, seal it and smooth the sealant a bit

Dave38 · Jan 24, 2019

The only treatment you can/should do to a carbon fiber shaft it wipe them with an alcohol wipe and then let it dry. No sanding or sealers. Was it new or used? If used, someone may have already done something bad to it. If new, return it and they should replace it.
Dave

gunzby · Jan 25, 2019

Dave38 said:
The only treatment you can/should do to a carbon fiber shaft it wipe them with an alcohol wipe and then let it dry. No sanding or sealers. Was it new or used? If used, someone may have already done something bad to it. If new, return it and they should replace it.
Dave

Its new. I wouldn't say it's rough, but it most certainly doesn't have the smoothness of a sealed wood shaft.

ClockSocket · Feb 26, 2019

Dave38 said:
The only treatment you can/should do to a carbon fiber shaft it wipe them with an alcohol wipe and then let it dry. No sanding or sealers. Was it new or used? If used, someone may have already done something bad to it. If new, return it and they should replace it.
Dave

When you know nothing about a subject, you should refrain from commenting on it.

Here is my background: I work for one of the world's leading manufacturers of carbon fiber lay-up machines used in the aerospace industry. These are the machines that Boeing uses to make carbon fiber fuselages and wings.

Carbon fiber will not be damaged by sealing it. Carbon fiber is literally strands of carbon in epoxy. When carbon fiber parts are done being formed, they are usually baked in an autoclave, which is a vacuum oven chamber.

Sanding CF will not hurt the CF, but it may allow grains of carbon to rise, which will act like splinters. You do not want CF splinters as they are basically impossible to remove. You also don't want to play with the dust.

As far as sealing and painting, CF holds finishes extremely well. Paint, seal, etc. to your heart's desire.

Dave38 · Feb 26, 2019

ClockSocket said:
When you know nothing about a subject, you should refrain from commenting on it.

Here is my background: I work for one of the world's leading manufacturers of carbon fiber lay-up machines used in the aerospace industry. These are the machines that Boeing uses to make carbon fiber fuselages and wings.

Carbon fiber will not be damaged by sealing it. Carbon fiber is literally strands of carbon in epoxy. When carbon fiber parts are done being formed, they are usually baked in an autoclave, which is a vacuum oven chamber.

Sanding CF will not hurt the CF, but it may allow grains of carbon to rise, which will act like splinters. You do not want CF splinters as they are basically impossible to remove. You also don't want to play with the dust.

As far as sealing and painting, CF holds finishes extremely well. Paint, seal, etc. to your heart's desire.

So your second post in our forum, and you start with being rude? I don't know if you intended to as rude as you were, or it was by accident, either way, you should read the 2 links below, especially the second one, before responding to questions in the 'Ask a cuemaker' section. Listing your credentials in CF knowledge doesn't give you or anyone the right to be rude.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=25061
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=167988
What is your background concerning cue repair/building? the OP's question was about sealing a brand new CF cue shaft, which btw, is already sealed from the manufacturer and therefore applying sealer would not do anything except create a non-smooth mess and would void the warrantee. Sanding the CF would destroy the factory finish, and the warrantee too and create the splinters that you referenced, and would require extensive work to get it back to the smoothness that it was like from the factory, if that is even possible to do in a cue repair shop setting. Hence the response that I as a Cue Builder and Cue Repairman, offered to the OP which was only clean it with alcohol wipes or if new....return it as it maybe defective.
Dave

JC · Feb 26, 2019

I thought that was one of the selling points of the cf shafts, the smoothness?

If it's not smooth something is wrong with it. Send it back.

JC

conetip · Feb 26, 2019

There is a compound that they apply to hard drive platters. Cant remember its name, but is made by Dupont. It is 20k per litre USD. It will make the shaft feel smooth for quite some time with 1 application. It will last about 3 months and then will need reapplying. I was given a 1cm piece of paper that was dabbed in the stuff to try. I was super impressed from it. I dont have the 20k to by a litre of the stuff. I asked if smaller quantities were available and they said no. My sample came from a company that does hard drive repair and recovery work. It is also non toxic.
Another thing to try is to very lighty draw polish the shaft with a light grey scotchbrite. Then you can apply stuff like cue silk over it with a paper towel or what ever.
Check with the manufacturer first before doing any sanding or polishing of any type what so ever. It may void any warranty.
Some epoxy resins are smother to skin than others also. Some do feel quite draggy, especially in more humid conditions.
The scotch guard antil spill stuff for furniture is also good for cleaning the carbon cue shaft with, at least it is with mine.
Neil

ClockSocket · Feb 27, 2019

Dave38 said:
So your second post in our forum, and you start with being rude? I don't know if you intended to as rude as you were, or it was by accident, either way, you should read the 2 links below, especially the second one, before responding to questions in the 'Ask a cuemaker' section. Listing your credentials in CF knowledge doesn't give you or anyone the right to be rude.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=25061
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=167988
What is your background concerning cue repair/building? the OP's question was about sealing a brand new CF cue shaft, which btw, is already sealed from the manufacturer and therefore applying sealer would not do anything except create a non-smooth mess and would void the warrantee. Sanding the CF would destroy the factory finish, and the warrantee too and create the splinters that you referenced, and would require extensive work to get it back to the smoothness that it was like from the factory, if that is even possible to do in a cue repair shop setting. Hence the response that I as a Cue Builder and Cue Repairman, offered to the OP which was only clean it with alcohol wipes or if new....return it as it maybe defective.
Dave

I taught myself how to build cues 25yrs ago. I built a few dozen while I was pursuing my engineering degree. When I say I taught myself, I mean: I never read a book on cue making. I never saw another cuemakers shop. I never talked to anyone who made cues.

If you think it is rude for someone to tell an internet BS'er that he shouldn't give advice about things he has no knowledge of, well, I can't help you there.

Btw, you are still spouting information that is complete BS. CF is extraordinarily easy to work with. It is as easy as LBM and easier than G10.

The OP did not ask about voiding the warranty. Yes, it will be voided.

scdiveteam · Feb 27, 2019

ClockSocket said:
When you know nothing about a subject, you should refrain from commenting on it.

Here is my background: I work for one of the world's leading manufacturers of carbon fiber lay-up machines used in the aerospace industry. These are the machines that Boeing uses to make carbon fiber fuselages and wings.

Carbon fiber will not be damaged by sealing it. Carbon fiber is literally strands of carbon in epoxy. When carbon fiber parts are done being formed, they are usually baked in an autoclave, which is a vacuum oven chamber.

Sanding CF will not hurt the CF, but it may allow grains of carbon to rise, which will act like splinters. You do not want CF splinters as they are basically impossible to remove. You also don't want to play with the dust.

As far as sealing and painting, CF holds finishes extremely well. Paint, seal, etc. to your heart's desire.

Hi CS,

If you sequence sand 320, 600, 1500, 2000 and 3000 for example, will the carbon fiber grain raise polish like wood and most other material and present well to a player wearing a glove?

I have very little experience with these shafts other than retipping.

I have a customer who wants me to build shafts and inlay sight lines on this type of material.

Thanks for any follow up information.

Rick

Get_A_Grip · Feb 27, 2019

gunzby said:
I recently bought a prime m shaft and really like it. The only issue I'm having is that the surface feels like raw wood. I've sealed my own shafts for years so I'm used to my shafts being far smoother.

From what I've looked up on carbon fiber it says that its chemical and heat resistant. I'd guess that means it can handle a lacquer type sealant and the heat produced from burnishing the sealant in.

Just wanted to hear thoughts before doing anything. I wasn't going to sand it at all. I'd just clean it, seal it and smooth the sealant a bit

From the Becue Official website:

SHAFT CLEANING
For the daily cleaning of the becue shafts it is recommended to use a cloth simply soaked in water and neutral soap.
Avoid solvents, alcohol or any other aggressive product.
Carbon fiber, unlike wood, is not absorbent, and therefore does not absorb dirt like a wooden shaft, but remains only trapped in surface microporosities, and for a thorough cleaning (twice a year), to remove grease, dirt and sweat, we recommend using a 1500/2000 grid sandpaper, then wipe a cloth soaked in water and neutral soap, and finally give a pass of specific black polish.

ClockSocket · Feb 27, 2019

scdiveteam said:
Hi CS,

If you sequence sand 320, 600, 1500, 2000 and 3000 for example, will the carbon fiber grain raise polish like wood and most other material and present well to a player wearing a glove?

I have very little experience with these shafts other than retipping.

I have a customer who wants me to build shafts and inlay sight lines on this type of material.

Thanks for any follow up information.

Rick

It will get very smooth, but it is like fiberglass, there will be ends of CF that are exposed and could fracture over time. If you sand, you definitely want to finish after.

ClockSocket · Feb 27, 2019

Get_A_Grip said:
From the Becue Official website:

SHAFT CLEANING
For the daily cleaning of the becue shafts it is recommended to use a cloth simply soaked in water and neutral soap.
Avoid solvents, alcohol or any other aggressive product.
Carbon fiber, unlike wood, is not absorbent, and therefore does not absorb dirt like a wooden shaft, but remains only trapped in surface microporosities, and for a thorough cleaning (twice a year), to remove grease, dirt and sweat, we recommend using a 1500/2000 grid sandpaper, then wipe a cloth soaked in water and neutral soap, and finally give a pass of specific black polish.

They say it doesn't absorb dirt, but then they recommend abrasive to remove the dirt. Doesn't add up.

ClockSocket · Feb 27, 2019

scdiveteam said:
Hi CS,

If you sequence sand 320, 600, 1500, 2000 and 3000 for example, will the carbon fiber grain raise polish like wood and most other material and present well to a player wearing a glove?

I have very little experience with these shafts other than retipping.

I have a customer who wants me to build shafts and inlay sight lines on this type of material.

Thanks for any follow up information.

Rick

Per the inlaying of sight lines, I think that would be a bad idea. CF gets it's strength by being a complete matrix. Inlaying will disrupt that matrix. CF takes paint so well, tho, that you could paint a line and then seal over it.

Dave38 · Feb 27, 2019

ClockSocket said:
I taught myself how to build cues 25yrs ago. I built a few dozen while I was pursuing my engineering degree. When I say I taught myself, I mean: I never read a book on cue making. I never saw another cuemakers shop. I never talked to anyone who made cues.

If you think it is rude for someone to tell an internet BS'er that he shouldn't give advice about things he has no knowledge of, well, I can't help you there.

Btw, you are still spouting information that is complete BS. CF is extraordinarily easy to work with. It is as easy as LBM and easier than G10.

The OP did not ask about voiding the warranty. Yes, it will be voided.

There is a way to share info with out being a rude/condescending person to other members. I suggest you figure that out soon before the Mods give a warning....
So you say you are an engineer, and accomplished cue builder, with no proof, and you accuse me to be a BS'er? You're right, let me bow down to you....mainly to avoid getting hit in the head from your ego filling the room. My suggestions were not BS, just common sense based on dealing with CUE shafts made of CF, and Manufacturer info.
From Predator's FAQ....

How do you maintain or clean a REVO shaft’s surface?

Never use abrasives or chemicals on a REVO shaft; doing so will damage the shaft’s surface and performance. To clean a REVO shaft’s surface, simply brush off any exterior dirt with the supplied microfiber cleaning cloth, and then wipe the shaft with a REVO cleaning wipe or a soft cloth treated with isopropyl alcohol (90%).
Dave

ClockSocket · Feb 27, 2019

Dave38 said:
There is a way to share info with out being a rude/condescending person to other members. I suggest you figure that out soon before the Mods give a warning....
So you say you are an engineer, and accomplished cue builder, with no proof, and you accuse me to be a BS'er? You're right, let me bow down to you....mainly to avoid getting hit in the head from your ego filling the room. My suggestions were not BS, just common sense based on dealing with CUE shafts made of CF, and Manufacturer info.
From Predator's FAQ....

How do you maintain or clean a REVO shaft’s surface?

Never use abrasives or chemicals on a REVO shaft; doing so will damage the shaft’s surface and performance. To clean a REVO shaft’s surface, simply brush off any exterior dirt with the supplied microfiber cleaning cloth, and then wipe the shaft with a REVO cleaning wipe or a soft cloth treated with isopropyl alcohol (90%).
Dave

You want proof of my credentials. What are you credentials and proof? Common sense from a guy who had offered no cf experience, whatsoever. Cool.

Don't you find it funny that a company tells people to not use chemicals on its products sells a disposable cleaning wipe that has alcohol (a chemical), and some kind of black polish (also a chemical).

I could list dozens of chemicals used on cf aircraft parts, but you'd just say that people who make cues know more about cf than the people who make airplanes.

If the mods want to get mad at one of us, it should be the guy who spreads made up information. If the want to ban me, is their sandbox, they can decide the depth and quality.

croscoe · Feb 27, 2019

Out of line

ClockSocket said:
You want proof of my credentials. What are you credentials and proof? Common sense from a guy who had offered no cf experience, whatsoever. Cool.

Don't you find it funny that a company tells people to not use chemicals on its products sells a disposable cleaning wipe that has alcohol (a chemical), and some kind of black polish (also a chemical).

I could list dozens of chemicals used on cf aircraft parts, but you'd just say that people who make cues know more about cf than the people who make airplanes.

If the mods want to get mad at one of us, it should be the guy who spreads made up information. If the want to ban me, is their sandbox, they can decide the depth and quality.

Clocksocket to me appear to be abrasive and somewhat out of line from the start and are coming off as an AH.
Your reply so far indicate you likely don’t care but that would be your personality problem and mostly to late to change if true.

Dave could have quoted the manufacturer recommendations first. In this case not Predator but Becue. So far none of the manufacturers have to my knowledge recommend sanding or sealing. With the exception of mentioned black polish. Most Actually stating the opposite and generally only alcohol somewhere between 70-91%. So his reply along with possibly discussing with the manufacturer especially if reasonable new. Sounds pretty sound.

scdiveteam · Feb 27, 2019

ClockSocket said:
It will get very smooth, but it is like fiberglass, there will be ends of CF that are exposed and could fracture over time. If you sand, you definitely want to finish after.

I thank you for the info.

I guess after turning the shaft and inlays flush down to the final size, I will just sand with 320, seal finish the shaft, then sand the finish up to 2000 then buff out.

Thanks again,

Rick

ClockSocket · Feb 27, 2019

croscoe said:
Clocksocket to me appear to be abrasive and somewhat out of line from the start and are coming off as an AH.
Your reply so far indicate you likely don’t care but that would be your personality problem and mostly to late to change if true.

Dave could have quoted the manufacturer recommendations first. In this case not Predator but Becue. So far none of the manufacturers have to my knowledge recommend sanding or sealing. With the exception of mentioned black polish. Most Actually stating the opposite and generally only alcohol somewhere between 70-91%. So his reply along with possibly discussing with the manufacturer especially if reasonable new. Sounds pretty sound.

No manufacturer recommends changing shaft taper, joint, tip or rings, either. How often do those happen?

Contrary to what has begun said about me is worse than what I said about anyone. Calling out misinformation is mach better than calling someone an asshole.

ClockSocket · Feb 27, 2019

scdiveteam said:
I thank you for the info.

I guess after turning the shaft and inlays flush down to the final size, I will just sand with 320, seal finish the shaft, then sand the finish up to 2000 then buff out.

Thanks again,

Rick

Let me reiterate, inlays in cf will compromise the structural integrity of the shaft and it will likely shatter. If it shatters on a shot, the bridge hand will likely be shredded to hamburger. Shattered cf is as sharp as glass.

croscoe · Feb 27, 2019

ClockSocket said:
No manufacturer recommends changing shaft taper, joint, tip or rings, either. How often do those happen?

Contrary to what has begun said about me is worse than what I said about anyone. Calling out misinformation is mach better than calling someone an asshole.

First let me clarify I said you’re coming off as an AH. Not that you are one. Sometimes voice tone, choices of words or timing can make one appear much different than intent.
Now reference to tip change most any manufacturer of a cue would recommend you place the tip that suit you the shooter and offer and expect such change. Shaft taper etc I know of none that recommend against it. But would not likely Warrantee it after such changes.

Back to carbon fiber shafts. Having shot CF arrows made by Eastern and then other manufacturers for over 10 years. I know they certainly can simi explode shatter create fragment strands that very easily penetrate the skin. They never like being twisted.
So your point is well made and supported by CFS failure that have shown up already though they appear few. And one reason I would not recommend breaking with one.
It could have been stressed with a break like SVB full table and flexed.

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Can you seal a carbon fiber shaft?

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