Feedback in grip hand

deraltefritz · Mar 2, 2017

Dear cuemakers (and physicists...),

what makes a cue deliver as much feedback (vibration) as possible to the grip hand? I'm looking for just that kind of cue.

The two cues I own are examples of what I feel deliver the opposite, namely almost no feedback to the grip hand. Extreme draw shots feel just as dull as center ball hits, no way to judge from the sensation in the grip hand where and how the tip hit the cue ball.

https://goo.gl/photos/oiCKfBJpQLDiCitKA

I have noticed that there is (at least some, but still what I feel too little) amount of vibration travel from the tip to the butt. However, only when I grip the cue at a small area around the front end of the wrap section, as indicated by the balls. If i grip one or two balls' width to either side, the cue stops vibrating instantly, and nothing much reaches the grip hand. I normally grip my cues (both 58") at the very end in order to get my arm orthogonal to the cue, so I will never be able to grip them anywhere near those vibrating areas. The cues feel dead to me.
Both cues are mass produced, therefore cored out from the bumper to allow for weight bolts, which I have removed for my personal weight preferences. The pen indicates how deep those "tunnels" are. That might explain the lack of vibration downwards to the butt?

I've been to a local (and apparently well respected in Europe) cue maker a while ago, and I also didn't think his cues delivered much of a feedback to the grip hand. But I never did test whether his cues vibrate more when held further up the wrap. I don't want to imply that he builds bad cues, people won European tournaments with them.

What causes this lack of vibration/resonance, or rather the very particular and small area where the cue resonates? Is it the wood(or combination thereof with incompatible resonance frequencies)? The joints? The shafts (both laminated LD with 11-12mm)? Or is it simply physically impossible to get the cue vibrate near the bumper end, no matter the material or construction? Am I looking for the cue that can never be?

Thank you,
Thomas

qbilder · Mar 3, 2017

Before spending money on a new cue, remove the bumper & see how much difference it makes to the feel. If not enough, try a firmer tip with lower sidewalls. These easy tests will let you know if you really want what you are asking for.

GBCues · Mar 3, 2017

It looks to me like the cue on the right has a stainless steel joint collar.
If that is true, there's a ~1oz chunk of metal in the middle of the cue that does not enhance the transmission of vibration down the cue.
If not, then never mind,
My 2 cents,
Gary

deraltefritz · Mar 6, 2017

@qbilder: I have played with both cues after removing the bumper. Not much of a difference unfortunately. Also playing with and without the weight bolts firmly inserted does not make a difference in sensation. Will try a harder tip.

@GBCues: Yes, the cue on the right has a stainless steel joint collar. The one on the left has some sort of plastic (phenolic?) collar in black.

The question remains is why both cues have some feeling / vibration transmission maximum on the upper part of the wrap area, but none at all near the bumper. Is that universal of all cues (the vibrations being maximized at the wrap section), or will a different selection of wood or construction method amplify vibration/feedback at the bumper section?

KJ Cues · Mar 6, 2017

The cue on the left should respond well to qbilder's tweaks.
The cue on the right with the SS jnt may also respond but not
to the level of the of the non-SS cue. Consider also that the
R cue has an 'A' jnt and possibly a wght-blt. Lotta metal in that cue.
'Dead' metal tends to dampen resonance.

qbilder · Mar 6, 2017

deraltefritz said:
The question remains is why both cues have some feeling / vibration transmission maximum on the upper part of the wrap area, but none at all near the bumper. Is that universal of all cues (the vibrations being maximized at the wrap section), or will a different selection of wood or construction method amplify vibration/feedback at the bumper section?

My guess is that by holding the cue above the wrap, you are at or near what is called center of percussion, which on a cue is also very similar to where the weight balances. This is where vibration seemingly emanates from. When you hit the cue ball, the cue flexes. It reflexes the opposite direction in attempt to return to its original shape, but overshoots & must reflex again. It does this an unknown number of times at rapid pace, each cycle weaker than the former until original shape is found. That's vibration. The wave length is what we know as tone. The amplitude is the measure of strength said tone has. When a cue maker talks about "pingy", he means the cue has a tight wave length, aka high pitch tone. And visa versa. The amplitude as it relates to cues is how strong, noticeable the vibration may be. This is why brazilian rosewood is so popular. It has a nice tone that's not too pingy but not too dull, and a strong amplitude, meaning it vibrates quite strong. That relates to a noticeable feeling in the cue.

That vibration/feel is indicative of performance, and as a player you become subconsciously aware of how certain shots feel & sound. You learn early on that a miscue not only sounds amiss, but also feels jerky & uncomfortable. You also learn that a clean center ball hit feels solid, giving a subtle but absolute vibration. Depending on your cue, it may be audible or it may not. Some folks prefer not hearing anything, and generally tend to like softer tips. Doesn't matter much as the cue still vibrates and you as a player learn what each shot should feel like, and when something is wrong. My approach to cue making has always been an attempt to maximize the feel/sensation of a cue not only for performance purposes, but also to make the cue easier to play with. The faster you can become familiar with a cue, the better you play. I match woods accordingly to achieve a particular wave length and amplitude that I personally believe makes a cue easier to play with. Perhaps i'm nuts, but there is as much science as there is crazy behind my approach.

Sorry to go off on a tangent like that, but it all ties together with your question. To answer your question directly, yes all cues vibrate and all cues have a center of percussion. The strength, tone, sustain, and cleanliness of vibration is different with every cue. Everything from the tip to the bumper factors. The cue is a sum of its parts. Folks who believe the butt of a cue doesn't matter, or that only the first few inches of a shaft is what dictates how a cue plays, is completely unaware of or dismissive of how the rest of the cue collectively influences performance. Subtle as it may seem, it all matters.

deraltefritz · Mar 6, 2017

qbilder said:
Sorry to go off on a tangent like that, but it all ties together with your question.

I don't think you go off on a tangent at all, answers like yours are greatly appreciated!

qbilder said:
My guess is that by holding the cue above the wrap, you are at or near what is called center of percussion, which on a cue is also very similar to where the weight balances.

That is interesting indeed. Does it generalize in such a way that adding lots of weight near the bumper or joint, that center of percussion can be moved up or down the cue? Is there a limit on how far you can move it up or down?
I think this is pretty much my main question, so I'll restate it once more: Is it possible to make a cue enhance vibration near the bumper, or is that physically impossible?
Do you have any resources (links?) that go into detail on deal this matter?

qbilder said:
The amplitude as it relates to cues is how strong, noticeable the vibration may be. This is why brazilian rosewood is so popular. It has a nice tone that's not too pingy but not too dull, and a strong amplitude, meaning it vibrates quite strong. That relates to a noticeable feeling in the cue.

But does different wood change the center of percussion? Are there wood specific wavelengths that move it further up/down naturally, or even have multiple spots where vibrations are amplified?

qbilder said:
That vibration/feel is indicative of performance, and as a player you become subconsciously aware of how certain shots feel & sound. You learn early on that a miscue not only sounds amiss, but also feels jerky & uncomfortable. You also learn that a clean center ball hit feels solid, giving a subtle but absolute vibration.

That is exactly what I'm looking for, supplying my subconsciousness with as much input as possible. I feel I'm missing out by having only visual and audible feedback, and that haptic feedback would greatly enhance the overall sensation and aid in strengthen muscle memory etc.

qbilder said:
Doesn't matter much as the cue still vibrates and you as a player learn what each shot should feel like, and when something is wrong.

Unfortunately mine don't, all shots feel (or do not feel) the same :-/

qbilder said:
I match woods accordingly to achieve a particular wave length and amplitude that I personally believe makes a cue easier to play with. Perhaps i'm nuts, but there is as much science as there is crazy behind my approach.

Being a scientist (unfortunately not a physicist though) myself, I greatly appreciate any efforts to bring science into cue-making.

galipeau · Mar 6, 2017

Looks like you're new to the forum deraltefritz, so welcome aboard! You're certainly getting good bang for your buck on this thread in terms of valuable information. The above posters are very knowledgeable on cue building.

Definitely mess with the tip selection, and if completely necessary change the ferrules out to something harder. Lots of great stuff in this forum about Capped VS Uncapped ferrules, and material comparisons.
The general consensus is: hard tip+hard ferrule+no bumper = harder hitting cue.
Joint material and "A-joint" construction techniques are also hotly debated subjects on here, but it is fun to go back and read the old threads.

The BIG questions is, are you using LD shafts that have some sort of cored out front end? In general, this process will absolutely kill much of the feeling to the butt of the cue.

qbilder · Mar 6, 2017

deraltefritz said:
Does it generalize in such a way that adding lots of weight near the bumper or joint, that center of percussion can be moved up or down the cue? Is there a limit on how far you can move it up or down? Is it possible to make a cue enhance vibration near the bumper, or is that physically impossible?
Do you have any resources (links?) that go into detail on deal this matter?

The rubber bumper dampens/suppresses vibration, which is why I recommended removing it to see if it made a difference. It seems odd to me that your cue didn't noticeably change upon doing so. It's usually at least an audible difference. So far as I can tell, having a wight bolt doesn't significantly alter vibration, and adding weight to the tip end would negatively affect your ability to control the cue ball due to increased deflection. In other words, the cue's character is pretty much baked in. I don't have any links to offer for researching cue vibration. As far as I know, cue making has thus far been lacking in quantifiable testing.

deraltefritz said:
But does different wood change the center of percussion? Are there wood specific wavelengths that move it further up/down naturally, or even have multiple spots where vibrations are amplified?

Good question. As far as I can tell, dimension plays a much more significant role than material characteristics. In a nutshell, a junk cue made with ramin wood will exhibit similarly positioned COP as a well crafted cue made with Brazilian rosewood. There will be noticeably different vibration wave length (tone), but the COP will still be about 20" from the bumper on a 58" cue. To be honest, I am still learning how to achieve specific tonal characteristics. Manipulating COP isn't even on my radar yet. It's simply beyond me at the moment. I'm not sure whether COP position is even relevant, or if I am not at a level to comprehend how. Beer is beer to most people, and we're discussing ph levels of the soil where the hops were farmed.

deraltefritz said:
That is exactly what I'm looking for, supplying my subconsciousness with as much input as possible. I feel I'm missing out by having only visual and audible feedback, and that haptic feedback would greatly enhance the overall sensation and aid in strengthen muscle memory etc.

I couldn't agree more. It's not for everybody, though. Some guys get off on hearing the engine roar of a hot rod while others prefer the cushy, quiet ride of a Cadillac. Others yet enjoy a Jeep. Many don't care so long as it gets them where they're going. Preferences are as many as there are cues to be played with. IMO, a cue should be comfortable. Just like dogs choose their masters, cues kinda choose their players. For me, a ping sound & sharp feel is the ticket. I need every edge I can get.

LGSM3 · Mar 6, 2017

The cue you seek is a Sugartree....just don't ruin it with an aftermarket shaft. Out of curiosity, do you grip the cue pretty firm or do u have a fairly loose grip whereas only a couple of fingers are managing the cue? I ask because I've been trying to work on loosening my grip and the cue doesn't feel the same

Sorry Eric

.

qbilder · Mar 6, 2017

LGSM3 said:
The cue you seek is a Sugartree....just don't ruin it with an aftermarket shaft. Out of curiosity, do you grip the cue pretty firm or do u have a fairly loose grip whereas only a couple of fingers are managing the cue? I ask because I've been trying to work on loosening my grip and the cue doesn't feel the same

Sorry Eric .

Hey now :nono:

deraltefritz · Mar 7, 2017

galipeau said:
Looks like you're new to the forum deraltefritz, so welcome aboard! You're certainly getting good bang for your buck on this thread in terms of valuable information. The above posters are very knowledgeable on cue building.

Thanks! I indeed appreciate the feedback here very much, and I hope that others may find this thread useful as well in the future.

galipeau said:
Definitely mess with the tip selection, and if completely necessary change the ferrules out to something harder. Lots of great stuff in this forum about Capped VS Uncapped ferrules, and material comparisons.
The general consensus is: hard tip+hard ferrule+no bumper = harder hitting cue.

Good suggestions, however the only thing I can really do myself is changing tips. But I will try the hardest tip I can find.

galipeau said:
The BIG questions is, are you using LD shafts that have some sort of cored out front end? In general, this process will absolutely kill much of the feeling to the butt of the cue.

The cue on the left has a Mezz WD700 on it, so it's laminated and cored with some lighter material, but not hollow afaik. The cue on the right is indeed a hollow old Z(1) shaft. I've come across a thread once or twice (

) were people discuss about the lack of feel of hollow shafts, and I like to believe this to be true. But both cues have about the same lack of feel to them. Even if I switch to the original non-laminated full maple shaft for the cue on the right, it's very similar. They do sound different however. So I think it must be the butt that plays a big role in what's being delivered to the grip hand, vibration wise. Or, and that would be a sad thought, the amount of vibration I'm looking for near the end of the cue is wishful thinking and physically impossible.

qbilder said:
The rubber bumper dampens/suppresses vibration, which is why I recommended removing it to see if it made a difference. It seems odd to me that your cue didn't noticeably change upon doing so. It's usually at least an audible difference.

It is indeed audibly different. It might make a difference near the COP, but I haven't been able to notice it. Certainly no difference near the bumper.

qbilder said:
So far as I can tell, having a wight bolt doesn't significantly alter vibration, and adding weight to the tip end would negatively affect your ability to control the cue ball due to increased deflection.

I have no intentions of adding any weight to the cue. I was just hoping that by getting a cue without the weight insert section hollowed out at the bumper, it would be possible to enhance vibration travel towards the bumper. Production cues seem to always have that part hollowed out to allow for the usual 18-22oz range, even if you don't need extra weight.

qbilder said:
Good question. As far as I can tell, dimension plays a much more significant role than material characteristics. In a nutshell, a junk cue made with ramin wood will exhibit similarly positioned COP as a well crafted cue made with Brazilian rosewood. There will be noticeably different vibration wave length (tone), but the COP will still be about 20" from the bumper on a 58" cue. To be honest, I am still learning how to achieve specific tonal characteristics. Manipulating COP isn't even on my radar yet. It's simply beyond me at the moment. I'm not sure whether COP position is even relevant, or if I am not at a level to comprehend how. Beer is beer to most people, and we're discussing ph levels of the soil where the hops were farmed.

Good analogy!
One more follow up question then if you please: if you were to compare a junk cue (maybe not made with ramin wood, but let's say a cue that certainly is on the low end vibration wise), and one that's build with the intention of maximizing haptic feedback. Will I experience a significant difference in vibration near the bumper (i.e. far away from the COP), or do I need to get a 65" or 70" cue in order to grip closer to the COP?

qbilder said:
I couldn't agree more. It's not for everybody, though. Some guys get off on hearing the engine roar of a hot rod while others prefer the cushy, quiet ride of a Cadillac. Others yet enjoy a Jeep. Many don't care so long as it gets them where they're going.

Those are the lucky ones I suppose...

LGSM3 said:
Out of curiosity, do you grip the cue pretty firm or do u have a fairly loose grip whereas only a couple of fingers are managing the cue? I ask because I've been trying to work on loosening my grip and the cue doesn't feel the same.

I think my grip is sort of light to medium (i.e. I'm neither choking nor just barely touching it), with all fingers (lightly) touching the cue upon impact, and the back fingers opening up on the back swing. I've worked hard on not squeezing it upon impact, keeping pressure the same level throughout the shot. Gets me pretty straight through the ball and where intended. It's just missing that nice feeling.

qbilder · Mar 7, 2017

deraltefritz said:
One more follow up question then if you please: if you were to compare a junk cue (maybe not made with ramin wood, but let's say a cue that certainly is on the low end vibration wise), and one that's build with the intention of maximizing haptic feedback. Will I experience a significant difference in vibration near the bumper (i.e. far away from the COP), or do I need to get a 65" or 70" cue in order to grip closer to the COP?

Resonance is the key word. Every species of wood has a range of vibration frequencies and intensity it allows. It's not unlike materials ranging in conductivity, ranging from high conductivity to semi-conductive to insulating. Just like copper conducts electric better than rubber, certain woods resonate better than others. It begins with molecular makeup and is affected by everything from grain straightness to dimension. For instance, straight grain purpleheart conducts vibration more efficiently and at higher frequency than buckeye burl. That's a dramatic comparison but it paints the picture. The resonance(or lack there of) is what you feel in your grip. The purpleheart will have a sharp, rigid pop to it where the buckeye burl would feel like a dull thud at best. Somewhere in the middle is where most players prefer. Truth be known, most players probably aren't specifically aware of what it is going on, or really even care about the technicalities, but they recognize when the cue feels good vs bad. It's not a coincidence that when a cue plays well, it also feels good. The two are parallel, hand in hand.

fastone371 · Mar 8, 2017

I am not a cue builder but I think I may be familiar with what OP is looking for. I have 2 different cues that almost make that ringing sound (but much muted) that a well hit golf ball/driver combo makes. The weird thing about it is it only happens with certain shaft/butt combos. Different shafts on same butts and different butts with ringing shafts will not duplicate that sound/feel. I tried to figure out if something was causing it but I certainly cant figure out the magic component. Joint doesnt seem to matter nor does type of wood. I sure would to know what causes it so I could have a custom built to my specs, thank you

qbilder · Mar 13, 2017

fastone371 said:
I am not a cue builder but I think I may be familiar with what OP is looking for. I have 2 different cues that almost make that ringing sound (but much muted) that a well hit golf ball/driver combo makes. The weird thing about it is it only happens with certain shaft/butt combos. Different shafts on same butts and different butts with ringing shafts will not duplicate that sound/feel. I tried to figure out if something was causing it but I certainly cant figure out the magic component. Joint doesnt seem to matter nor does type of wood. I sure would to know what causes it so I could have a custom built to my specs, thank you

A cue is the sum of all its parts. IMO, as I have said 1000 times before, every single component is equally important, no matter how seemingly insignificant it may be. The butt of the cue matters every bit as much as the shaft. There's a lot of science to cue making. Just like a Chevy Chevette and a Lamborghini Countach are both automobiles with the same components & both can effectively be driven, there's no comparison in the quality and performance departments. No different with cues.

StrokeAnalyzer · Mar 13, 2017

You might find this interesting....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=326025

Cheers
Bob

qbilder · Mar 13, 2017

That is indeed interesting. Care to elaborate? How did you test?

M.G. · Mar 13, 2017

Did you ever try a 1 piece (kind of, it's spliced) Snooker house cue?
If not, now's your time! The last ones I used vibrated my arm half off...

As to how to get maximum response:
- use a low (very small) ferrule
- LD/laminated shaft -> very difficult to get this
- use a firm, but not hard, tip, trimmed down
- use a small diameter of you tip. <11mm is a start
- dont have different woods in your but, cut up and glued together with rings, etc. They will transmit vibrations differently and/or cancel them out. Go with a rather boring 1 piece maple.
- have no idea what the best joint would be

Cheers,
M

StrokeAnalyzer · Mar 13, 2017

I think full splice cues give the best feedback....ie the most pure transmission of vibration to the grip hand. All those typical joints and splices in a traditional cue with ring work above and below the handle cause reflections up and down the cue and dampen the feedback.

Bob

Chris Abaya Cues · Mar 13, 2017

StrokeAnalyzer said:
You might find this interesting....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=326025

Cheers
Bob

qbilder said:
That is indeed interesting. Care to elaborate? How did you test?

Yes, very interesting. I have the same questions. Thanks.

Feedback in grip hand

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