how low can you contact cb with a level cue?

evergruven · Feb 14, 2020

following up with the
"when you draw, where should the cb contact the tip?" thread
I took some of y'all advice and tested with a stripe
to my surprise, this is as low as I could draw with a (seemingly) level cue
I tested this several times, and got a similar result each time
not only does this outcome seem to narrow down the cause of my miscue/draw woes
(with good form, I'm not getting too low/am inside miscue limit)
but it's pretty interesting in and of itself
again, I'm using a fairly small tip (11.5mm) and dime shape
and if you look at the pics, you can see the chalkmark indicating
where the curve of the tip, meets the curve of the cb
kinda cool

Grandslam · Feb 14, 2020

Great pics.

hang-the-9 · Feb 14, 2020

There is "level" and "levels of level". I think many draw shots are going to be hit with some sort of downward stroke because you have a hand holding the shaft, you need space to clear the table rails and your grip hand is also there. I think the key is "level as possible" or "where you don't do bad stuff with the cue" not just "hit level or else". I have seen a lot of people with crazy strokes get action with some accuracy on the cueball while the shaft is going in like 6 different directions before and after the hit LOL

ShootingArts · Feb 14, 2020

Looks Good!

evergruven said:
following up with the
"when you draw, where should the cb contact the tip?" thread
I took some of y'all advice and tested with a stripe
to my surprise, this is as low as I could draw with a (seemingly) level cue
I tested this several times, and got a similar result each time
not only does this outcome seem to narrow down the cause of my miscue/draw woes
(with good form, I'm not getting too low/am inside miscue limit)
but it's pretty interesting in and of itself
again, I'm using a fairly small tip (11.5mm) and dime shape
and if you look at the pics, you can see the chalkmark indicating
where the curve of the tip, meets the curve of the cb
kinda cool

Nice pictures indeed! Also nice, the shape of the chalk mark. It indicates the tip is still working well at the height you are hitting. You should never miscue with a well chalked tip. How much draw can you get with a good stroke and follow-through?

Hu

evergruven · Feb 14, 2020

hang-the-9 said:
There is "level" and "levels of level". I think many draw shots are going to be hit with some sort of downward stroke because you have a hand holding the shaft, you need space to clear the table rails and your grip hand is also there. I think the key is "level as possible" or "where you don't do bad stuff with the cue" not just "hit level or else". I have seen a lot of people with crazy strokes get action with some accuracy on the cueball while the shaft is going in like 6 different directions before and after the hit LOL

ha..great point and agree
when I tested, I had plenty of room on the table for the cue and my bridge
but you're absolutely right
"level" is a concept worth considering

evergruven · Feb 14, 2020

ShootingArts said:
Nice pictures indeed! Also nice, the shape of the chalk mark. It indicates the tip is still working well at the height you are hitting. You should never miscue with a well chalked tip. How much draw can you get with a good stroke and follow-through?

Hu

thanks hu, I'll pass that compliment onto my iphone:grin:
I get decent action, but I'm no mike massey
often when I go for a big one, I miss my spot and end up putting sidespin on the cb
it'll go in the direction I want it to, but I know the cb is losing energy when I do that
I think that's part of the reason I miscue sometimes drawing..just trying too hard
once in awhile tho, I hit it pure..keeps me comin' back:thumbup:

Patrick Johnson · Feb 14, 2020

Are you asking how low is it physically possible to get a level cue? That's easy: the centerline of a level cue can't possibly be any lower than half the butt's diameter off the table surface - say 5/8". Its tip would contact the CB at ~3/4", about 2/3 of maximum draw.

So it's not physically possible to get maximum draw with a level cue, even if you hold the tip from above and drag the butt along the cloth - so an actual stroke with bridge and grip fingers under the cue must be slanted to hit with maximum draw, maybe with any draw.

This also means that when using a striped ball as the CB it's a little more accurate if you tilt the stripe a little so it's on the same plane as your stroke.

pj
chgo

pt109 · Feb 14, 2020

I found if my tip finishes off the cloth, I don’t get the draw that I want.
...with my best draw shots, I leave a chalk mark on the cloth on my follow through.

But I’d really like to know where you got that object ball.......
...I’ve never seen an 01ball before....

Patrick Johnson · Feb 14, 2020

Maybe it's distorted in the pic, but that stripe looks wider than 1/2 diameter. Have you measured it?

pj
chgo

evergruven · Feb 14, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
Are you asking how low is it physically possible to get a level cue? That's easy: the centerline of a level cue can't possibly be any lower than half the butt's diameter off the table surface - say 5/8". Its tip would contact the CB at ~3/4", about 2/3 of maximum draw.

So it's not physically possible to get maximum draw with a level cue, even if you hold the tip from above and drag the butt along the cloth - so an actual stroke with bridge and grip fingers under the cue must be slanted to hit with maximum draw, maybe with any draw.

This also means that when using a striped ball as the CB it's a little more accurate if you tilt the stripe a little so it's on the same plane as your stroke.

pj
chgo

hi pat
it was suggested to me that I was miscueing because I was hitting the cb too low
I found that with "as level as possible" a cue, I couldn't exceed the miscue limit
(will measure stripe later)
so out of curiosity I asked
if literally anybody could hit lower under similar conditions
still haven't gotten an answer on that:grin:
but I guess it depends on what "level" is

anyway
I'm now wondering if it's known under what conditions
cue angle, etc.
how we can achieve "maximum draw"- ?

evergruven · Feb 14, 2020

pt109 said:
I found if my tip finishes off the cloth, I don’t get the draw that I want.
...with my best draw shots, I leave a chalk mark on the cloth on my follow through.

But I’d really like to know where you got that object ball.......
...I’ve never seen an 01ball before....

thanks for the shout, pt
I often end up with chalk on the cloth when I draw
but I don't think it's from the tip, directly
I think it's chalk dust from the impact
not sure how that rates

re: ob, well if you couldn't tell, I'm kind of backwards when it comes to this pool stuff, so..:thumbup:

Patrick Johnson · Feb 14, 2020

evergruven said:
...under what conditions
cue angle, etc.
how we can achieve "maximum draw"- ?

It depends on the length and height of your bridge. On a bridge that's 1 inch high and 12 inches long (like in the pic), the cue has to be slanted at about 4 degrees to hit maximum draw (4 degrees = butt 4 inches higher than tip). That's probably close to minimum slant - if the bridge is higher or closer (not unlikely) the slant will be steeper.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Feb 14, 2020

Of course the main reason we can't have level cues is the rails - it's rare to shoot a shot with the butt of the cue not over one. That means that with many common rail heights it's literally impossible to hit the CB at all with a truly level cue without miscuing.

pj
chgo

straightline · Feb 14, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
It depends on the length and height of your bridge. On a bridge that's 1 inch high and 12 inches long (like in the pic), the cue has to be slanted at about 4 degrees to hit maximum draw (4 degrees = butt 4 inches higher than tip). That's probably close to minimum slant - if the bridge is higher or closer (not unlikely) the slant will be steeper.

pj
chgo

That looks like the classic across the table uber draw. Now explain piquet shots. :grin:

Patrick Johnson · Feb 14, 2020

straightline said:
...explain piquet shots.

Describe one.

pj
chgo

straightline · Feb 14, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
Describe one.

pj
chgo

First description I came across stated it was a stroke that drew the ball without it hitting anything. The description went on to say the ball should be struck at a 45 degree incline. Obviously this is wrong or not possible on modern equipment. The only way possible seems to be with a vertical stroke. The ball squirts out and returns on the same line. Point being elevation is a requirement of maximum spin; not the other way around.

Scratch85 · Feb 14, 2020

evergruven said:
I think that's part of the reason I miscue sometimes drawing..just trying too hard

once in awhile tho, I hit it pure..keeps me comin' back:thumbup:

Describes me perfectly!

Max draw, with distance, using a medium stroke is a misery for me. But once in a while tho . . . , I hit it pure. Same story, makes me believe I can hit with consistency. My results prove otherwise.

Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

Patrick Johnson · Feb 14, 2020

straightline said:
First description I came across stated it was a stroke that drew the ball without it hitting anything. The description went on to say the ball should be struck at a 45 degree incline. Obviously this is wrong or not possible on modern equipment. The only way possible seems to be with a vertical stroke. The ball squirts out and returns on the same line. Point being elevation is a requirement of maximum spin; not the other way around.

To compare apples with apples, shoot both ways (vertical and horizontal) straight into a nearby OB. Even with no piquet spin lost reversing the CB’s direction, you can’t get the CB to draw nearly as far that way as with a horizontal stroke.

pj
chgo

straightline · Feb 15, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
To compare apples with apples, shoot both ways (vertical and horizontal) straight into a nearby OB. Even with no piquet spin lost reversing the CB’s direction, you can’t get the CB to draw nearly as far that way as with a horizontal stroke.

pj
chgo

It's not a comparison. The piquet ball returns. The draw ball doesn't. Pretty simple math there.

Patrick Johnson · Feb 15, 2020

straightline said:
It's not a comparison.

Then why do you keep comparing them?

The piquet ball returns. The draw ball doesn't. Pretty simple math there.

And here you are comparing them again...

You're right that they aren't comparable actions - where you're wrong is in trying to compare them (and then denying it). Maybe you should look that word up...

pj
chgo

how low can you contact cb with a level cue?

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