how low can you contact cb with a level cue?

[Patrick Johnson]

The Coriolis method of aiming massé quickly tells you that the elevation must be about 60 degrees before the cue ball can even go out and stop.

I.e., aiming with maximum draw at the CB's base (where it touches the table).

And the amount of speed = the distance it goes before stopping?

Fascinating stuff.

I tried this on the VP4 simulator - it worked exactly as described: maximum draw at 60° made the CB scoot forward (an amount determined by force) and stop dead with no follow or draw.

I'm always impressed with the accuracy and realism of VP4's physics and graphics.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

I tried this on the VP4 simulator - it worked exactly as described: maximum draw at 60° made the CB scoot forward (an amount determined by force) and stop dead with no follow or draw.

I'm always impressed with the accuracy and realism of VP4's physics and graphics....

There are a few things VP doesn't get quite right mostly because they are very expensive to calculate. One of them is the ball sinking into the cushion.

 

[straightline]

I recall double kiss banks were nonsense. Also with a slight incline you could smack a center ball/ draw shot and get a zillion rails the long way. The one thing that never got corrected is center ball is always where you'd apply left eng.

I think I have 4 somewhere. I should install it.

 

[Nostroke]

on each shot go lower until you miscue-The shot right before the miscue is how low you can go.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here's a related question: Why can some players get consistently more draw than others?

It's all about stroke accuracy. None of us hit the exact CB spot we're trying to hit 100% of the time. But better players with more consistent strokes hit closer to it - they have a "tighter shot grouping". That means they can aim closer to maximum draw because they're less likely to stray outside the limit.

Here's a diagram that illustrates what I'm saying. The large black circles are the miscue limits - the ball on the left shows the looser "shot grouping" (blue dots) of a lower-skilled player and the ball on the right shows the tighter "shot grouping" of a higher skilled player.

Both players have learned subconsciously how low they can aim without miscuing too often: at the red dots on their respective CBs - that's where they've learned is "maximum draw" for them, and that's the amount of average draw they each get.

pj
chgo

 

[garczar]

Another word for it is "masse".

pj
chgo

In general use a masse is a forward moving shot with exaggerated curve. A piquet starts out forward but stops and reverses course. If you've never seen it done its an eye-opener.

 

[Bob Jewett]

In general use a masse is a forward moving shot with exaggerated curve. A piquet starts out forward but stops and reverses course. If you've never seen it done its an eye-opener.

I think this counts as a piqué. I learned how to play from Willie Mosconi and this was one of the shots he taught me fairly early on. Mike Massey normally takes the cue ball out to the third diamond before it yo-yos back. Allen Hopkins does it without a cushion and very short travel. To see Willie do it, watch The Hustler.

 

[dr_dave]

Maybe it's distorted in the pic, but that stripe looks wider than 1/2 diameter. Have you measured it?

FYI, a demonstration of how to easily do this can be found in the video here:

tip position for maximum possible spin

The articles linked on the page also have some good illustrations related to a lot of topics in this thread.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. D states shooting down on the ball doesn't result in more back spin yet here is the Piquet shot. Call It what you like it's still a draw shot. No it doesn't defy science. It does indicate human technique requires the backstop of the table to convert stroke force into backspin.

A pique shot is an extreme example of quick draw. It is especially useful when a level stroke is not possible without a double hit. For straight-back draw shots where cue elevation is not required, more backspin and draw is possible with a level cue. For an explanation for why this is true, see:

draw shot technique advice

draw shot physics-based advice

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I think this counts as a piqué. I learned how to play from Willie Mosconi and this was one of the shots he taught me fairly early on. Mike Massey normally takes the cue ball out to the third diamond before it yo-yos back. Allen Hopkins does it without a cushion and very short travel. To see Willie do it, watch The Hustler.

Here's a demonstration with super-slow-motion playback:

NV A.6 – Massé-draw billiard (carom) shot

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[straightline]

A pique shot is an extreme example of quick draw. It is especially useful when a level stroke is not possible without a double hit. For straight-back draw shots where cue elevation is not required, more backspin and draw is possible with a level cue. For an explanation for why this is true, see:

draw shot technique advice

draw shot physics-based advice

Enjoy,
Dave

Lets take the cue ball by itself. Can backspin be expressed as torque and forward momentum, something else; in English not math.

 

[dr_dave]

Lets take the cue ball by itself. Can backspin be expressed as torque and forward momentum, something else; in English not math.

Backspin doesn't need to be expressed as anything else. The farther your hit from CB center (relative to the direction of the cue), the more spin is applied. When the cue is elevated, some of the back is lost as the CB is driven down into the table. Also, with an elevated cue, the CB moves forward with less speed, allowing the backspin to "take" more quickly. For more info, see:

draw cue elevation effects

and

quick draw

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: Did you check out all of the links. They don't just contain math and physics. They contain lots of illustrations, video demonstrations, and clearly-written instructional articles. Check them out. They cover everything in this thread (and a lot more) in great detail.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In general use a masse is a forward moving shot with exaggerated curve.

Yes, those are the most familiar examples. But I also think of piquet as a version of masse - which to me is any spin about a horizontal axis causing the CB to change direction without outside influence, with versions ranging from the mini-masse of side spin "swerve" to the swooping curves of trick shots all the way to the "sharp curves" of piquet.

pj
chgo

 

[deanoc]

i amvery grateful to dr dave for all of these videos

I never knew there was so much to the game
thank you
dean

 

[straightline]

Backspin doesn't need to be expressed as anything else. The farther your hit from CB center (relative to the direction of the cue), the more spin is applied. When the cue is elevated, some of the back is lost as the CB is driven down into the table. Also, with an elevated cue, the CB moves forward with less speed, allowing the backspin to "take" more quickly. For more info, see:

draw cue elevation effects

and

quick draw

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: Did you check out all of the links. They don't just contain math and physics. They contain lots of illustrations, video demonstrations, and clearly-written instructional articles. Check them out. They cover everything in this thread (and a lot more) in great detail.

rong anser lol. I was curious as to the, and forgive the lay jargon, impact mass and rate required to backspin the ball while moving the ball forward as little as possible with a normal stroke. Torque sounds like a good term there.

 

[Bob Jewett]

rong anser lol. I was curious as to the, and forgive the lay jargon, impact mass and rate required to backspin the ball while moving the ball forward as little as possible with a normal stroke. Torque sounds like a good term there.

The problem with using lay jargon is it doesn't really mean anything specific. "impact mass and rate" ... what the heck is that supposed to mean? You need to throw in "momentum", "tangential activation", and "phlogiston" to make things complete. Lots of people confuse acceleration and velocity, momentum and force, etc. Those words actually mean something, and if you're going to have a technical discussion, it's better to use them correctly.

 

[straightline]

The problem with using lay jargon is it doesn't really mean anything specific. "impact mass and rate" ... what the heck is that supposed to mean? You need to throw in "momentum", "tangential activation", and "phlogiston" to make things complete. Lots of people confuse acceleration and velocity, momentum and force, etc. Those words actually mean something, and if you're going to have a technical discussion, it's better to use them correctly.

I'm not a scientist but I gotta ask right?

Lemme back up to level cue. That's already determined to have omitted the words, "as possible". It also occurs to me that shooting perfectly level at a draw shot will cause lift to the ball defacto scooping it. So, shooting downward per the requirement of a legal draw shot also introduces elements of a jump shot; lift by bounce. The cueball does not present its full mass to the cloth while traveling away from the shooter. It will pass through stages of little to no resistance to back spin.

Back to the question, I would like to hear language describing the rates and forces required to produce the most efficient draw shot. What I'm curious to know is the physical ideal of this model. ie no shooter or stick or human frailty.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Back to the question, I would like to hear language describing the rates and forces required to produce the most efficient draw shot. ...

The details are in the links already provided. It takes some amount of training, but not beyond high school physics and geometry, to understand them.

 

[straightline]

I've been through that stuff. It's easy enough to grasp. Just looking for clues; insight, without the rhetoric or emeritus pride thank you.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...shooting perfectly level at a draw shot will cause lift to the ball defacto scooping it.

You’re determined to be wrong - kinda like a troll.

pj
chgo