Viability of English and Low Squirt Shafts

ndakotan · Nov 18, 2012

How much english do you use and does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts? Do Low Squirt shafts also help with draw/follow? Do you normally use english only on certain shots, no shots, to get in line only, or to stay in line? It seems to me that english is extremely useful in banks, kicks, and specialty shots (throw due to obstructing balls), but I generally use outside english on shots (position play notwithstanding) because it seems to me that 0.95 tips of english will play the same way as 1.05 tips of english, whereas 0.25 tips of left play way different than 0.25 tips of right. Opine with your thoughts and thought process.

I personally have little training in pool, most of my thought process is obtained from interpreting articles by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett with my own experiences. Any misrepresentation or errors in statement are mine, not theirs.

ENGLISH! · Nov 18, 2012

You seem to have a fairly good handle on it. I went to LD shafts in June of this year(OB Classic & McD i2). It did not take very long to adjust.

What is 'lost' is the ability to use the greater deflection to 'send' the CB out there & spin it back into a far away OB. It can still be done but it just takes a much more drastic adaptation.

I had to sell my 1st. venture into LD. It was a 314 Cat that had been 'juiced', sanded down. It would spin away with 'normal' type english & I just could not get used to it starting so 'straight' & then spinning away. In other words the swerve with it was more of a problem than the normal deflection/squirt. It was great in close quarters & I think it did put more draw on the ball as I was over doing it a bit too often. I sold it to a 'newbie' & he just loves it.

Regards,

Roger Long · Nov 18, 2012

I'll try to keep this simple.

I believe in using english (meaning side-spin, only) whenever, and wherever, it is necessary in order to move the cue ball to a certain spot after it rebounds off a cushion. I also believe in using as much, or as little, english as is necessary to get the exact angle I need off of a cushion. I never use it to try and steer the cue ball before contact with the object ball unless I purposely employ a downward stroke with it.

I believe that cue ball deflection ("squirt") is something I have to deal with any time I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke. I also believe that cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) above the horizontal axis with a medium, or soft, stroke.

I believe that "low-deflection" shafts could lower the amount of cue ball deflection I might experience when hitting the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke; however, existing tests have shown that the actual amount of reduction achieved is not enough to entice me into paying a high price to acquire one, or interest me in spending any time to adjust to one.

I believe that robotic tests could be set up that would demonstrate my claims concerning the "above horizontal axis" hit. I also believe that all "low-deflection" shaft manufacturers would readily disagree with those same claims.

Roger

ndakotan · Nov 18, 2012

LD Shafts

Roger,

I see your point and agree with 90% of what you say. Less english, less complication, more better. I play 8 ball on bar tables (only game in town normally) so my experiences are tied to bar table 8 ball. I play area shape (i.e., an place on a decent line to the next shot, not blocked by a ball). I think it slightly foolhardy to play to a specific spot if you don't know if the table and balls are in good shape, so I'm happy with windows rather than spots. As I said, I like to play a little outside english if possible for the consistency, but I don't mind warping the ball if needed to get the throw I want or leave I want. I don't consider myself a great follow/draw shot player, but I get by with both. Larry N. has nothing to fear from my stroke

I have won team matches with goofy english off the rail, I'm generally pretty adventurous rather than conservative. I see english and top/bottom as essential to 40-50% of my shots (wild guess).

I like the LD shafts because they don't cost you anything as far as accuracy on easy shape shots, but they greatly help on spin shots. If you need to spin a ball in off the rail, it is nice to know you can aim at the spot with inside english and get the right spot rather than compensate for english squirt.

Just talking one-rail kicks, it is sometimes easier to kick with 1 or 2 tips side rather than centerball, and I find it less cumbersome to use a LD shaft to hit the spot I want than a standard shaft. Freddy's books and the big yellow 8 ball book (Robin Givens?) have some great 1 rail kick with english systems.

I'm partial to the OB Classic shaft on our league Valley Tables, but liked the Jacoby Hybrid shaft much better on the diamond tables at vegas. I don't know for sure what that means about the difference between the shafts, if that makes sense to anyone and can explain it to me, I'd love to hear it.

I'm intrigued by your assertion that squirt is much worse with below-center hits and want to look into that further. Is it not normal to have 2-3 ball squirt on a full table kick using any side?

I have no magical unreaslistic expectations with LD shafts or cues in general, I like the ones that send the ball in the right direction.

Roger Long said:
I'll try to keep this simple.

I believe in using english (meaning side-spin, only) whenever, and wherever, it is necessary in order to move the cue ball to a certain spot after it rebounds off a cushion. I also believe in using as much, or as little, english as is necessary to get the exact angle I need off of a cushion. I never use it to try and steer the cue ball before contact with the object ball unless I purposely employ a downward stroke with it.

I believe that cue ball deflection ("squirt") is something I have to deal with any time I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke. I also believe that cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) above the horizontal axis with a medium, or soft, stroke.

I believe that "low-deflection" shafts could lower the amount of cue ball deflection I might experience when hitting the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke; however, existing tests have shown that the actual amount of reduction achieved is not enough to entice me into paying a high price to acquire one, or interest me in spending any time to adjust to one.

I believe that robotic tests could be set up that would demonstrate my claims concerning the "above horizontal axis" hit. I also believe that all "low-deflection" shaft manufacturers would readily disagree with those same claims.

Roger

Patrick Johnson · Nov 18, 2012

ndakotan said:
How much english do you use

As little as I can to get where I need to go.

...does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts?

I wouldn't like using english as much with a high squirt shaft.

Do Low Squirt shafts also help with draw/follow?

Some think so, but I don't believe it - no reason they would. They also don't cause more spin or more spin errors. In my experience they do make it harder to jump, but I don't know why.

Do you normally use english only on certain shots, no shots, to get in line only, or to stay in line?

Any shot, but I'm more hesitant on long shots and off the rail.

I personally have little training in pool, most of my thought process is obtained from interpreting articles by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett with my own experiences. Any misrepresentation or errors in statement are mine, not theirs.

You have good taste in instructors.

pj
chgo

MitchAlsup · Nov 18, 2012

Consider a shot where english is to be applied. There is a line down which the CB will roll (even it you only consider the point of impact). This line does not change between low deflection, normal deflection, or high deflection shafts.

The point of impact on the CB remain the same in order to 'put' the same amount of english on the CB. The velocity of the cue stick remains the same to put the same amount of velocity on the CB.

What does change is the shooters perception of where to aim this shot. Lower deflection shafts have less change from the no english shot to the english applied shot than higer deflection shafts.

But the path of the CB remains constant--given the same initial velocity and the same amount of spin.

The above is one reason I concentrate on the line of the CB instead of the point of impact on the OB.

ENGLISH! · Nov 18, 2012

As I've said, I have an OB Classic & a McD i2. They have different tips so this may not be totally acurate but...the OB hits fine but seems to have a, how to say it, a bit less forceful hit than the i2. Now, it could be the different tips, but maybe not. I play in S. La., so, a change in humidity or temperature can really affect the cloth. On several occassions, I have had to switch shafts to accomodate to the conditons & make my adjusting to them easier & quicker.

Playing on bar tables where the CB is almost always 'diffferent' makes using english a bit of a necessity unless you have time to figure out the exact 'difference' & adapt.

I know CJ Wiley's thoughts on english & I would tend to agree, but when playing 8 ball on a bar table, I for one, seem better to 'guarantee' the angle the CB is going to take better with english rather than by relying on that 'different' ball for a tangent line. Often if you subconsciously focus on position without english, you will get the position but mis the shot. I can better get the angle or make sure I mis it on the side I want with english rather than the side I do not want.

Again, just my $0.02.

Regards,

plfrg · Nov 19, 2012

spin greater with LD shaft?

why wouldn't the spin applied to the CB be different for LD vs higher D shafts? I don't know the answer but it seems like it could be tested.

If a HD shaft 'pushes' thru the CB (essentially pushing the CB offline a little) and an LD shaft doesn't, it seems like an LD shaft in theory should apply more spin? As it is possibly 'grabbing' the CB on the way thru as apposed to pushing offline? Given the same cue tip contact point on the CB.

I think the test wouldn't be as easy to set up as it seems but it should be doable. You would need similar tips, same tip diameter, same tip shape, same chalk, and you would probably need to find and use the correct pivot point of both cues. Then just hit the CB straight onto to the rail and see which one spins further on the rebound (creates a larger angle)?

CreeDo · Nov 19, 2012

I use plenty of sidespin and draw, probably less follow than I ought to. I love to "spin my rock" as Grady used to say. Don't like to hit 'em hard.

I don't think the LD shaft plays much role in either my shotmaking decisions or position play, it only affects whether I miss the ball or not. That's the main difference, it changes where you aim.

Please don't buy any hype that it will give you better spin, more spin, better position play, super draw, etc. ...it just changes your line of aim to make the ball. I'll give an example of why people get fooled into overthinking these shafts.

This is one of my pet shots. You're almost straight in, with the wrong angle to get to the top of the table. But you can follow with a lot of inside spin to get to spot "A" or beyond. The trick is to cheat the pocket and hit the object ball as full as you can. So that's the orange line. And the yellow line is where the object ball goes into the hole.

Let's say you then aimed the exact same way with a traditional shaft. Right off the bat, the cue ball (black line) contacts the the 2 off the side, a bit less full. As a result, the 2 ball is overcut a bit (wrong side of the pocket, the blue line). So your cue ball hits the rail much lower, because you didn't hit as full. Then all that sidespin you used kicks in... but because it hit the rail lower, at a different angle (going slightly backwards even)... it only carries you to spot "B".

People don't always notice the subtle overcut, or the different rail contact point, so they assume the low deflection shaft just somehow spun the ball better. It didn't, it just deflected differently which combined with a lot of other factors to give you a different outcome.

Donny Lutz · Nov 19, 2012

Agree with Roger

Roger Long said:
I'll try to keep this simple.

I believe in using english (meaning side-spin, only) whenever, and wherever, it is necessary in order to move the cue ball to a certain spot after it rebounds off a cushion. I also believe in using as much, or as little, english as is necessary to get the exact angle I need off of a cushion. I never use it to try and steer the cue ball before contact with the object ball unless I purposely employ a downward stroke with it.

I believe that cue ball deflection ("squirt") is something I have to deal with any time I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke. I also believe that cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) above the horizontal axis with a medium, or soft, stroke.

I believe that "low-deflection" shafts could lower the amount of cue ball deflection I might experience when hitting the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke; however, existing tests have shown that the actual amount of reduction achieved is not enough to entice me into paying a high price to acquire one, or interest me in spending any time to adjust to one.

I believe that robotic tests could be set up that would demonstrate my claims concerning the "above horizontal axis" hit. I also believe that all "low-deflection" shaft manufacturers would readily disagree with those same claims.

Roger

I tend to agree with your view on the above and below center, but it may have more to do with the CB deflection being "assisted" with the low hit.

I do like the way you explain things. I have little doubt you're a very good instructor.

ENGLISH! · Nov 19, 2012

Okay, firstly, I've only been playing with LD shafts since June, but I have been playing with english for roughly 46 yrs.

That being said, The 'scientist' are going to say that the spin is only dependent on the tip offset & the speed of the hit. Okay those are the simple facts with everything being totally equal. However, everything else is not totally equal. One shaft is pushing through the CB & the other shaft is deflecting off of the CB.

In my earlier post I mentioned that I had to sell a 'juiced' sanded down 314 Cat shaft because the swerve caused by spin was too much to deal with over distance vs a more 'balanced' ratio of deflection & spin from other shafts. The spin in close quarters was awesome. The problem was trying to 'control' the swerve over longer distances.

I 'think' that when the shaft deflects it is appling a bit more spin in a swiping manner. When a regular shaft forces its way through the CB it is pushing it both off line & forward. Hence the LD puts 'more' spin on, relative to the foward motion & momentum. That is how spin is put on other balls in sports, tennis, ping pong, volley ball, & golf. It is done by a 'glancing' hit. Throwing a curve ball is similiar as the fingers move from behind the ball to the side of the ball, hence applying 'side spin'.

Perhaps that explanation is not 'technically' correct as to the term more. It is a relative relationship. Which dynamic does one want to base it on? Is it more spin per foward motion or is it less foward motion per spin?

'We' perceive it as more spin. It 'seems' that a LD shaft can put 'equal' spin on the ball with a bit less effort/hit. So, if equal effort/hit is applied then it should equal 'more' spin.

That's my $0.02. Take it or leave it. I am not going to enter into a word war with anyone. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me.

Regards,

Patrick Johnson · Nov 19, 2012

plfrg said:
why wouldn't the spin applied to the CB be different for LD vs higher D shafts? I don't know the answer but it seems like it could be tested.

It has been tested. I've tested it many times. There's no difference between shafts.

If a HD shaft 'pushes' thru the CB (essentially pushing the CB offline a little) and an LD shaft doesn't, it seems like an LD shaft in theory should apply more spin? As it is possibly 'grabbing' the CB on the way thru as apposed to pushing offline? Given the same cue tip contact point on the CB.

If they're both properly chalked, both kinds of shafts "grab" the CB the same way. The shaft doesn't produce two separate forces on the CB - forward momentum and sideways deflection - that produce different effects. It produces one "combined force" that points in a single direction.

Think of the shaft's force on the CB as an arrow that points from the tip through the CB a little to the side of center. With CB deflection the shaft is angled slightly off that line - a little more angle with HD and a little less angle with LD - but the force is still the same line pointing in the same direction: toward the CB's target. Only the shaft's angle changes.

In other words, it's the same single "force vector" on the CB, in the same amount and pointing in the same direction - so there's no difference in the amount of spin produced on the CB.

pj
chgo

naji · Nov 19, 2012

Patrick Johnson said:
It has been tested. I've tested it many times. There's no difference between shafts.

If they're both properly chalked, both kinds of shafts "grab" the CB the same way. The shaft doesn't produce two separate forces on the CB - forward momentum and sideways deflection - that produce different effects. It produces one "combined force" that points in a single direction.

Think of the shaft's force on the CB as an arrow that points from the tip through the CB a little to the side of center. With CB deflection the shaft is angled slightly off that line - a little more angle with HD and a little less angle with LD - but the force is still the same line pointing in the same direction: toward the CB's target. Only the shaft's angle changes.

In other words, it's the same single "force vector" on the CB, in the same amount and pointing in the same direction - so there's no difference in the amount of spin produced on the CB.

View attachment 248792

pj
chgo

With large tip players tend to pivot the cue more than with smaller tip. That is why you see 11.75 mm tips advertised as LD in reality you just get more in line with the no squirt line and provides less squirt. The smaller the tip/shaft the better.
End mass come into play if you shoot while pivoted.

Patrick Johnson · Nov 19, 2012

naji said:
With large tip players tend to pivot the cue more than with smaller tip.

Larger tips produce more squirt (because they have more end mass), so they must be pivoted more to compensate.

That is why you see 11.75 mm tips advertised as LD in reality you just get more in line with the no squirt line and provides less squirt.

The only way to "get (the shaft) more in line with the no squirt line" is to reduce squirt by reducing end mass.

End mass come into play if you shoot while pivoted.

End mass comes into play whenever you use sidespin. If you don't pivot (adjust your aim to compensate for squirt) you miss.

pj
chgo

naji · Nov 19, 2012

Patrick Johnson said:
Larger tips produce more squirt (because they have more end mass), so they must be pivoted more to compensate.

The only way to "get (the shaft) more in line with the no squirt line" is to reduce squirt by reducing end mass.

End mass comes into play whenever you use sidespin. If you don't pivot (adjust your aim to compensate for squirt) you miss.

pj
chgo

PJ, no matter what the end mass is, if your cue is parallel to line of aim (between CB & OB) the no squirt line, there will be no squirt.
End mass only effects when you are pivoted.

Patrick Johnson · Nov 19, 2012

naji said:
PJ, no matter what the end mass is, if your cue is parallel to line of aim (between CB & OB) the no squirt line, there will be no squirt.
End mass only effects when you are pivoted.

Maybe we're having a language problem, but squirt is produced whenever you strike the CB offcenter, no matter if you pivot or not.

pj
chgo

naji · Nov 19, 2012

Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe we're having a language problem, but squirt is produced whenever you strike the CB offcenter, no matter if you pivot or not.

pj
chgo

No language problem. Again i did not say you are wrong, i am saying what i think is right. Again, there are lots of variables that needs to be at right conditions.
Do you have a 9 or 10 mm shaft at your position?

Pay Up Sucker · Nov 19, 2012

naji said:
No language problem. Again i did not say you are wrong, i am saying what i think is right. Again, there are lots of variables that needs to be at right conditions.
Do you have a 9 or 10 mm shaft at your position?

That is the size of his regular playing cue

ENGLISH! · Nov 19, 2012

naji said:
PJ, no matter what the end mass is, if your cue is parallel to line of aim (between CB & OB) the no squirt line, there will be no squirt.
End mass only effects when you are pivoted.

Mr. Naji,

When you shoot with 'parallel' english there is still CB squirt & swerve. If your speed is 'perfectly' correct, you do not have to compensate for them as they will virtually cancell each other out. If your speed is different, say for positon purposes, you will need to compensate for them. You may be doing this subconsciously as I have done for many, many years & still do.

If you use some form of 'pivot' after initial aim, back hand, front hand, or combination of both, that is a form of compensation for the CB squirt & swerve. Again, you may be doing this subconsciously as well. I use all forms sometimes consciously, but for the most part I use them subconsciously & do not even know when, where, or why I 'choose' one way over the other one.

All that being said, there are times when one can use the squirt & swerve to shoot a certain type of shot to increase the cut angle on the object ball. This is when one pays particular attention to the squirt & swerve, A conscious effort.

Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words & a thousand words may not be enough to convey the most simple picture.

Best Regards,

naji · Nov 19, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Naji,

When you shoot with 'parallel' english there is still CB squirt & swerve. If your speed is 'perfectly' correct, you do not have to compensate for them as they will virtually cancell each other out. If your speed is different, say for positon purposes, you will need to compensate for them. You may be doing this subconsciously as I have done for many, many years & still do.

If you use some form of 'pivot' after initial aim, back hand, front hand, or combination of both, that is a form of compensation for the CB squirt & swerve. Again, you may be doing this subconsciously as well. I use all forms sometimes consciously, but for the most part I use them subconsciously & do not even know when, where, or why I 'choose' one way over the other one.

All that being said, there are times when one can use the squirt & swerve to shoot a certain type of shot to increase the cut angle on the object ball. This is when one pays particular attention to the squirt & swerve, A conscious effort.

Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words & a thousand words may not be enough to convey the most simple picture.

Best Regards,

Thanks Rick, i will stand by what i said, until further notice, it does not mean you or Pat wrong. There will be no squirt or swerve if your cue 100% parallel to table (no elevation), and parallel to the no squirt line. You will ask how can you have level cue, sure low english you will swerve, high english you can have level cue.

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