Viability of English and Low Squirt Shafts

Yes, that's one of my points: the cue must be "pivoted" unless the amount of swerve exactly matches the amount of squirt - call that the "effective pivot point" because it changes with the amount of swerve for each shot. Another point is that each cue also has a "natural pivot point" (the point at which you'd pivot if swerve didn't exist) which is a fixed characteristic of each shaft like tip width or taper, and exists at the same point on the shaft whether or not the cue is ever actually pivoted there, defining the squirt side of the squirt/swerve equation for each shot.

If there's enough flexibility in CB position, then it's theoretically possible to choose tip offset, butt elevation and speed to exactly match swerve with squirt to aim directly at the target with "parallel english". But I don't believe there's enough CB position flexibility to do this exactly on most shots, and I don't believe we're capable of seeing whether or not we've achieved it exactly for any shot. So I think players who try to make a practice of it are fooling themselves to some degree about how successful they really are - this is what I mean when I say parallel english doesn't really exist and everybody pivots.

The important question to me is which is better: aiming "parallel" with less choice of CB position or aiming pivoted with more choice of CB position?

It seems to me that both require the same degree of familiarity with the effects of tip offset, butt elevation and speed, and I'm comfortable with aiming pivoted, so I choose pivoting and more choice of CB position.

pj
chgo

I guess I had neglected to account for the squirt/swerve scenario because I try to avoid swerve by keeping as level a cue as possible. So, yes, parallel w/squirt-correcting swerve (I still have a hard time accepting this as viable, but...) is the other option.
 
Look, the point of PJ's posts on this subject is simple:

1. Players use english (sidespin) and still make shots.
VERY TRUE

2. Applying english (sidespin) to the CB creates squirt.
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS ALWAYS TRUE

therefore

3. Players have adjusted for squirt by changing their direction of aim slightly (i.e. pivoted, if you like).
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS ALWAYS TRUE

Now, they may not call it pivoting, or BHE, or whatever, but they have done it, because otherwise they wouldn't make the shot.
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS PROOF OF WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING

The above comments in RED are mine. I believe parallel english is the the most accurate way to shoot, and BHE ("back hand english") is something to stay away from unless you purposely use it with a downward stroke to maximize spin for a curve shot. Using BHE on a shot with normal roll will only cause the cue ball to go in the wrong direction.

Roger
 
...parallel w/squirt-correcting swerve (I still have a hard time accepting this as viable...)
Whether we accommodate swerve by adjusting our aim or accommodate our aim by adjusting swerve, we have to make the same kinds of estimates of the effects of tip offset, butt elevation and speed. Also, because we tend to stay within our "comfort zones" for offset/elevation/speed, we unconsciously "adjust swerve" a little when pivoting or adjust aim a little when "paralleling". In other words, I think there's some overlap the two approaches.

But I do think adjusting swerve (aiming "parallel) requires us to choose more often between compromising CB position or using combinations of offset/elevation/speed outside our comfort zones.

pj
chgo
 
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swest:
Applying english (sidespin) to the CB creates squirt.
Roger Long:
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS ALWAYS TRUE
The rotating cue ball always pushes the tip sideways, and so it must also push itself sideways in the opposite direction - that's squirt. It's also one of the most basic laws of physics.

How do you imagine this can be avoided?

pj
chgo
 
The above comments in RED are mine. I believe parallel english is the the most accurate way to shoot, and BHE ("back hand english") is something to stay away from unless you purposely use it with a downward stroke to maximize spin for a curve shot. Using BHE on a shot with normal roll will only cause the cue ball to go in the wrong direction.

Roger

The statements I made that you commented on were made under the assumption that one is shooting with as level a stroke as possible.

I have been operating under the belief that the following statement is an invariant: Given a level cue stick, striking the CB left or right of center causes the CB to travel on a vector whose direction is angled right or left (respectively) of the cue stick's vector.

No?
 
Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo
naji:
It is possible with small tip hitting CB at [small] offset ... at least from feel point of view.
What it feels like is not necessarily the reality. No tip is small enough to produce sidespin without squirt.

say i have glass or extremely smooth cloth surface, will there be a squirt? If not is squirt due to cue or friction
Squirt is simply the direction in which the CB is initially propelled - exactly like propelling the CB in a direction without sidespin. The direction isn't changed by different surfaces.

Swerve is changed by different surfaces because it's caused by masse-type spin. This can make it seem like squirt is affected by the surface, but it's not really.

pj
chgo
 
The above comments in RED are mine. I believe parallel english is the the most accurate way to shoot, and BHE ("back hand english") is something to stay away from unless you purposely use it with a downward stroke to maximize spin for a curve shot. Using BHE on a shot with normal roll will only cause the cue ball to go in the wrong direction.

Roger

Mr. Roger,

As we have already 'discussed', it also depends whether it is high or low with side english & the appropriate speed/tip offset spin ratio comes into play.

I believe these things are determined by the shot & postion need at hand. I generally keep my cue as level as possible for most shots & use a 'parallel' type aim as often as possible. Once the speed for position is determined & an amount of tip offset is chosen to go along with that speed the aim is fine tuned.

That being said, occassionaly, once down on the shot, that perspective may indicate that a change may be appropriate. I make these changes by a slight adjustment of more or less tip offset by simply sliding the entire cue right or left or... with a bit of BHE, FHE, or a combo of both. They may be very, very slight, but they are often the difference between success & failure in either pocketing the ball, position or scrathing or not.

Is it more simple to shoot with no english? The obvious answer is yes. But a little right or left english at times makes it so much easier to get very good position.

While 'talking' about all these parameters sounds complicated, the actual employment of them is relatively easy. They are intuitive in my opinion & can be used successfully with relative ease if we can just keep our brains out of the way & allow our amazing mind & body to simply get it done.

Do we think about riding a bike or do we simply just allow ourselves to ride the bike?

This long winded rant is not intended for you, Mr. Long, but more so for anyone out there that maybe is being scared off as to the viability of using english. One certainly does not need to use it as much as myself & can certainly take the approach of others including CJ Wiley & limit its use. But... the ability to use it should certainly be 'learned' & employed when beneficial to do so.

Best Regards,
 
Mr. Naji,

What taper shafts do you play with & is the 11mm one a different taper than the others?

Also, are you playing with regular shafts or Low Deflection(squirt) shafts?

I'm just wondering if these differentials may be contributing to your perceptions.

Best Regards,

My Taper is a nickel curvature, my shaft is not LD, because when i use pivot like for extreme outside or inside english i have to offset my aim a lot, if i bridge my shaft near the joint the squirt disappears, but my normal bridge is about 9-10 inch.
 
The above comments in RED are mine. I believe parallel english is the the most accurate way to shoot, and BHE ("back hand english") is something to stay away from unless you purposely use it with a downward stroke to maximize spin for a curve shot. Using BHE on a shot with normal roll will only cause the cue ball to go in the wrong direction.

Roger

Sorry but this is simply false. BHE works amazingly well, particularly if you have a long bridge and shoot with a LD shaft. It is almost magic. I think the majority of people use this method only without the obvious pivot. Instead they just get down on the line the cue would be on after they pivot. How does parallel english compensate for squirt? I think parallel english is the least accurate method. Who does this? (perhaps I should say, what high level player does this?)

I'm very curious why you would believe that applying english to the cue ball *doesn't* always produce squirt. Could you offer a single example in which using english does *not* produce squirt?

Trying to figure out where you're coming from,

KMRUNOUT
 
The rotating cue ball always pushes the tip sideways, and so it must also push itself sideways in the opposite direction - that's squirt. It's also one of the most basic laws of physics.

How do you imagine this can be avoided?

pj
chgo

Hard to imagine that anyone would dispute your views on this. It is SO Newtonian.

Of course, it is possible that swerve can counteract squirt but as you clearly know, Force A being negated by Force B doesn't suggest that Force A doesn't exist.

(-:
 
...
I'm very curious why you would believe that applying english to the cue ball *doesn't* always produce squirt. Could you offer a single example in which using english does *not* produce squirt?
There's the oddball case where you're not hitting too far from center and swoop in the direction of the spin. You can even produce negative squirt (in the opposite direction from normal).

You do get some squirt reduction in the horizontal direction - the direction we have to adjust for - when combining follow or draw with sidespin. For instance, if you make contact along the line going from the center of the cueball to the two o'clock mark, you'll get just as much squirt as with pure sidespin, but directed toward the eight o'clock mark instead of nine o'clock. The horizontal component is thus reduced to 87%. If you hit along the one o'clock line, the horizontal component is reduced by 50% (squirt is now directed toward the seven o'clock mark).

Also, if you hit with high-right or high-left, the friction force points more sideways than with pure sidespin, and the subsequent swerve acts more immediately, so to speak, and might give the impression that there was no squirt to begin with. Not true, as you point out.

Jim
 
KMRUNOUT:
Could you offer a single example in which using english does *not* produce squirt?
JAL:
There's the oddball case where you're not hitting too far from center and swoop in the direction of the spin.
The swoop doesn't eliminate squirt - it just changes the cueing angle to compensate like always, right?

pj
chgo
 
Yes, that's one of my points: the cue must be "pivoted" unless the amount of swerve exactly matches the amount of squirt - call that the "effective pivot point" because it changes with the amount of swerve for each shot. Another point is that each cue also has a "natural pivot point" (the point at which you'd pivot if swerve didn't exist) which is a fixed characteristic of each shaft like tip width or taper, and exists at the same point on the shaft whether or not the cue is ever actually pivoted there, defining the squirt side of the squirt/swerve equation for each shot.

If there's enough flexibility in CB position, then it's theoretically possible to choose tip offset, butt elevation and speed to exactly match swerve with squirt to aim directly at the target with "parallel english". But I don't believe there's enough CB position flexibility to do this exactly on most shots, and I don't believe we're capable of seeing whether or not we've achieved it exactly for any shot. So I think players who try to make a practice of it are fooling themselves to some degree about how successful they really are - this is what I mean when I say parallel english doesn't really exist and everybody pivots.

The important question to me is which is better: aiming "parallel" with less choice of CB position or aiming pivoted with more choice of CB position?

It seems to me that both require the same degree of familiarity with the effects of tip offset, butt elevation and speed, and I'm comfortable with aiming pivoted, so I choose pivoting and more choice of CB position.

pj
chgo

It might seem that way at first, but really, adjusting for the swerve is much easier and intuitive than you would think. If I were to rate how difficult the adjustment is, I would say that its only slightly more difficult than determining how to get the cue ball to slide into the object ball for a stop shot.

Sure, a lot of the time you will not shoot it perfectly, just like a lot of the time the cue ball will not make a dead stop when you shoot a stop shot, but the fact that parallel english allows you to shoot softer more than makes up for any intuitive inaccuracies. Not to mention the huge visual advantage you get due to being able to point the cue in the same direction as you would with center ball.

You also might think that your cue ball becomes limited with parallel english, but it really doesn't if you are shooting the right shots. If you keep your speed consistent, which you should ideally be doing regardless of whether or not you pivot, the only factors should be what spin (both horizontal and vertical) you use and what elevation you use. The adjustments to elevation are so slight that they are essentially subconcious. So really, all you have to do is pick a spin and use it provided your feel is up to par.

There are however some spots where parallel english doesn't work and as with any system or method in pool, true mastery comes not from simply being able to use it, but from knowing what its limitations are.

With parallel english, you are slightly limited in that you cannot use a HARD stroke and expect to make the ball reliably and very close shots are much more difficult to account for. For hard and/or close shots, pivot methods are better.

Other than that, once you get say 3-4 diamonds away from the object ball, Not a whole lot of adjustment is needed as long as you have a good feel for the shot. Just visualize the swerve and throw working in your favor rather than simply adjusting for it.
 
You also might think that your cue ball becomes limited with parallel english, but it really doesn't if you are shooting the right shots. If you keep your speed consistent, which you should ideally be doing regardless of whether or not you pivot, the only factors should be what spin (both horizontal and vertical) you use and what elevation you use. The adjustments to elevation are so slight that they are essentially subconcious. So really, all you have to do is pick a spin and use it provided your feel is up to par.

Mr. Masayoshi, ( I assume it's Mr. )

I particularly agree with the quote above & your entire post was well stated.

Best Regards,
 
Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

Today i was confronted with a shot where there were an OB # 1 about 4 to 5 " behind CB hiding almost 7/8th of it (like moon eclipse), in another word you cannot shoot CB with center hit, and only room for cue to shoot 100% parallel english other wise you would touch the OB # 1 if you pivot, and the OB #2 i want to pocket happens to line up nicely. I made it without having to adjust the aim like i would a pivot shot
 
Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo

Perhaps a small amount of spin could be produced with little to no squirt, but that's not what I'm saying.

My point is that those that use parallel english don't care about squirt - they have already factored it in after thousands of shots and can accurately shoot using parallel english by unconsciously adjusting for any squirt that is occurring. I'm not saying they adjust by pivoting. I think they adjust the aimline they are on by keeping their cue as parallel to the original ghostball aimline as possible (I don't use parallel english myself but I'm guessing this is how they accomplish it).

I think more than a few people do use parallel english and some are very high level players.
 
My experience is similar to yours. I have asked a LOT of top pros about parallel english and pivot points and most of them....9 out of 10...didn't even know what those things are.

They MAY use such things...but not knowingly or intentionally...at least if they were telling me the truth which I expect they were.

Possibly, that is explained by what I consider the FACT that most of the great ones got great via the "million shot method."

I am certain that the vast majority of the great ones played and practiced RELENTLESSLY...compulsively and fanatically to such an extent that they have played hundreds and hundreds of times more shots than even really good amateurs have ever shot.

So, they decide on the english (if any) they need for position and just KNOW how to adjust their aim to produce the desired results.

(-:

I've found it very interesting to talk to a few pros about the aiming methods and shot routines they use. The answers I received were very similar. They simply don't complicate the issues like the rest of us do. Most of them couldn't explain a shot routine or their aiming method in any meaningful detail.

I'm not saying they don't know anything useful about pool, however, understanding what value they have is important. A higher level player could learn a great deal about strategy from the average pro that they could not get from the average instructor. A beginner level player is basically wasting their time and the pro's time.

It may sound funny but all of the back and forth on AZB isn't really good for your game. For instructors or people interested in understanding exactly what is happening, some of this is needed "research". But for anyone that is interested in serious competition, I would advise them to avoid AZB and all of the over thinking that happens here.
 
It may sound funny but all of the back and forth on AZB isn't really good for your game. For instructors or people interested in understanding exactly what is happening, some of this is needed "research". But for anyone that is interested in serious competition, I would advise them to avoid AZB and all of the over thinking that happens here.

Interesting! I tend to agree. However, there certainly is value here for some developing players so long as they can keep their brains out of the way when they are actually playing.

If you don't mind, what does plfrg stand for? Is it playing for gold or playing leap frog?

Regards,
 
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Interesting! I tend to agree. However, there certainly is value here for some developing players so long as they can keep their brains out of the way when they are actually playing.

If you don't mind, what does plfrg stand for? Is it playing for gold or playing leap frog?

Regards,

lol. I certainly don't play for gold. You will be hard pressed to get more than $20 out of my pocket. I only bet small sums when playing. Just enough to keep it interesting.

You got part of it right. It's short for pool frog. Couldn't think of anything else at the time...
 
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