California Cue-Makers - No More Ivory......

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Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Now that the ban on the sale of ivory of any kind in California is about to take effect in less than 8 months, what do you foresee as the resultant impact?

Will any cue-makers be tempted to relocate outside of California because of the ban or will they just use substitute material for their fancy cue designs?
And does not being able to use ivory jeopardize any future cue sales?

Forget for the moment whether the law is good or bad or fair or prejudicial......it is what it is so conformity and compliance is non-negotiable........everyone
has to obey the regulation if you reside in California.

If you own a cue that was made with ivory and the same CA cue-maker cannot make that same cue design again, or anything even similar, using ivory, does
the cue made with ivory appreciate since it cannot be made again, i.e., any future rarity & scarcity?

Prewitt, Tonkin, Carmeli, McWorter, Chudy, Cohen, Morris, Porper, etc.........those cues won't contain any ivory any longer after July 1. 2016......if you own
such a cue, does the ban help the value.......it can't hurt the value since you can still sell your ivory pool cue outside of California.....Las Vegas is only 8 hrs. drive.

What do you think will happen with California cue-makers? The ban also means that any cue-maker residing outside California, must still abide by the ivory ban
when the customer resides in California. So how doe you see this developing? I placed an order for two custom cues to be built as soon as the ban was passed.
Those will likely be my last ivory joint cues unless I buy a cue from the resale market before next summer.and a Hercek cue would be nice to own.

Back to the ban. less than 8 months until no more ivory sales in CA even if you cue was made in 1970......it sucks but like I earlier wrote, it is what it is.

Matt B.


"Governor Jerry Brown signed AB 96 that finally closes a loophole in the state’s ban on importing and buying elephant ivory.
California is the third state to ban all sales of ivory after New York and New Jersey. The state is one of the largest U.S. markets for the product.
California has already had an ivory ban on the books since 1977. Until now, shopkeepers were allowed to sell ivory that was imported before 1977.
The new goes into effective July 1, 2016, with fines up to $50,000 and a year in jail for illegal sales.
 
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Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I'm glad the ban is in effect. There's no need for ivory in, or on a cue. It would be different if the material wasn't part of a living animal, but it is. People have killed living elephants to get the ivory. I get that there is "pre ban" ivory, but you end up with black and gray markets.

Southwest has done a fantastic job at making sought after cues without ivory. Holly can be used in place of ivory. Or juma. Or other white materials that are more stable.

Cuemakers should have a social conscience as well.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I'm glad the ban is in effect. There's no need for ivory in, or on a cue. It would be different if the material wasn't part of a living animal, but it is. People have killed living elephants to get the ivory. I get that there is "pre ban" ivory, but you end up with black and gray markets.

Southwest has done a fantastic job at making sought after cues without ivory. Holly can be used in place of ivory. Or juma. Or other white materials that are more stable.

Cuemakers should have a social conscience as well.

Holly kills the hit .
Juma does not have the ivory pitch. Not even close .
Just stating facts .

I don't see the great makers here moving to Las Vegas soon .
There is one thing makers here who are a few miles from the ocean enjoy most of the year , the best cue making climate in the world . Not too wet, not too dry. Not too hot, not too cold . You can leave the shop door open and work without worrying about your woods going nuts . When desert winds kick, you shut the door and let the wood experience dry weather. When it rains, it's still not as humid as if you were in Asia or Alabama.

It's gonna hurt those who have used ivory to price up their cues for sure .
There is no substitute for the price ivory brings .

I don't use ivory much at all , so it won't hurt me . I have no slabs of ivory. I only have a few round pieces left.
Ernie has thousands and thousands of dollars in ivory in stock afaik.
I know a scrim hander in Sta Barbara area who is going to be hurting too. Even if he uses ancient mammoth ivory.

Welcome to the Hotel Nazifornia. It's such a lovely place.
 

Chicagoplayer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Now that the ban on the sale of ivory of any kind in California is about to take effect in less than 8 months, what do you foresee as the resultant impact?

Ivory cannot be taken out of the USA- it will be confiscated and you risk fines!
With ivory, it's not "if" it cracks- it's "when" it cracks.


Will any cue-makers be tempted to relocate outside of California because of the ban or will they just use substitute material for their fancy cue designs?
I don't know but Hopefully all will use Elforyn!! It smells like coconut when it's cut!
And does not being able to use ivory jeopardize any future cue sales?
Entirely subjective

Forget for the moment whether the law is good or bad or fair or prejudicial......it is what it is so conformity and compliance is non-negotiable........everyone has to obey the regulation if you reside in California.

If you own a cue that was made with ivory and the same CA cue-maker cannot make that same cue design again, or anything even similar, using ivory, does the cue made with ivory appreciate since it cannot be made again, i.e., any future rarity & scarcity?
Yes-
Prewitt, Tonkin, Carmeli, McWorter, Chudy, Cohen, Morris, Porper, etc.........those cues won't contain any ivory any longer after July 1. 2016
Very good- lead by example!......
if you such a cue, does the ban help the value.Only for those who collect.
I often wondered what good is a cue if you can't play with it or if it's seized you lose it AND get fined?
......it can't hurt the value since you can always sell your ivory pool cue outside of California......Heck, Las Vegas is a 8 hr. drive from Fresno. Got gamble?

What do you think will happen with California cue-makers? The ban also means that any cue-maker residing outside California, must still abide by the ivory ban when the customer resides in California.
So how doe you see this developing?
It's terrific for the elephants but difficult for everyone else, both owner and cue builder alike. But it's the right thing to do

I placed an order for two custom cues to be built as soon as the ban was passed. Those will likely be my last ivory joint cues unless I buy a cue from the resale market before next summer.and a Hercek cue would be nice to own
Joel rocks!
......the crown jewel for my collection.

Back to the ban. less than 8 months until no more ivory sales in CA even if you cue was made in 1970......it sucks but like I earlier wrote, it is what it is.

Matt B.

"Governor Jerry Brown signed AB 96 on Sunday to close a loophole in the state’s ban on importing and buying elephant ivory.

California is the third state to ban all sales of ivory after New York and New Jersey. The state is one of the largest U.S. markets for the product.

California has already had an ivory ban on the books since 1977. Until now, shopkeepers were allowed to sell ivory that was imported before 1977.

The new goes into effective July 1, 2016, with fines up to $50,000 and a year in jail for illegal sales.
 

Chicagoplayer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hear Hear!!

I'm glad the ban is in effect. There's no need for ivory in, or on a cue. It would be different if the material wasn't part of a living animal, but it is. People have killed living elephants to get the ivory. I get that there is "pre ban" ivory, but you end up with black and gray markets.

Southwest has done a fantastic job at making sought after cues without ivory. Holly can be used in place of ivory. Or juma. Or other white materials that are more stable.

Cuemakers should have a social conscience as well.

Awesome post!!:thumbup:
 

Dave-Kat

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I highly doubt that USPS 'Ivory Cops' are going to be on the 'lookout' for a pool cue with Ivory inlays, joints ferrules etc. being shipped illegally within the USA.

Carriers do not open and go through each and every package and inspect the millions of pcs being handled daily unless they are suspect of contents. Even if they did open your tube to inspect the cue it would look like any other pool cue to most and they would be on their way.

I believe they are looking for other items that can cause harm to humans. The World has much bigger 'fish to fry' at the moment besides worrying about the pool collector enthusiast making and shipping a pool cue. Ivory or not. I believe that the OP is being a bit paranoid due to his fetish for the 'precious'.

Have a good weekend,

-Kat
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I highly doubt that USPS 'Ivory Cops' are going to be on the 'lookout' for a pool cue with Ivory inlays, joints ferrules etc. being shipped illegally within the USA.

Carriers do not open and go through each and every package and inspect the millions of pcs being handled daily unless they are suspect of contents. Even if they did open your tube to inspect the cue it would look like any other pool cue to most and they would be on their way.

I believe they are looking for other items that can cause harm to humans. The World has much bigger 'fish to fry' at the moment besides worrying about the pool collector enthusiast making and shipping a pool cue. Ivory or not. I believe that the OP is being a bit paranoid due to his fetish for the 'precious'.

Have a good weekend,

-Kat
Different story with USPS.
They've opened my packages coming in and going out of the country.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Holly kills the hit .
Juma does not have the ivory pitch. Not even close .
Just stating facts .

I was speaking about them as an inlay material. Ivory, as a ferrule and joint material, is overrated. I have no clue what mystic property ivory has, in terms of making a cue hit better. The best joint, in my opinion, and also in blind testing, was a wood to wood joint with a 5/16-18 pin and brass insert. Phenolics are more durable. And nothing has to die.

People can do without ivory in pool. It's about time people stepped out of the 1960s and 70s, and actually gave two shits about the world around them.
 

SWN99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have felt cue's with a stainless joint and micarta or aegis ferule have had a likeable feel, no reason for me to use ivory of any kind.
 

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
People can do without ivory in pool. It's about time people stepped out of the 1960s and 70s, and actually gave two shits about the world around them.

I don't care too much about whether my pool cue has ivory or not,
but I do care about laws that punish innocent people because "someone else" may commit a crime.

There are lots of examples of these types of laws, this is just one more.....
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
Phenolics are more durable. And nothing has to die.

People can do without ivory in pool. It's about time people stepped out of the 1960s and 70s, and actually gave two shits about the world around them.

Do you live in an igloo or cave? Those are the only two dwellings I can think of that don't use any living thing to build...How do you get your heat and air conditioning? All heat and air is derived the use of wood, gas, or oil which IS are the bones and blood of Mother Earth...Do you own a car or even take public transportation? So you do use some of mothers blood...How about a leather belt of jacket? Gotta slaughter those cows to have that luxury... How about clothing... Gotta embarrass those sheep but trimming them naked. Soooo demeaning..:rolleyes:...Do you eat? That's right eat.. ANYTHING.. All food comes from what was once a living thing....I can go on and on... Ya see EVERYBODY "takes" from this earth. YOU are no exception. If elephants, in fact ALL animals, understood the lifestyle humans enjoy they would want a piece of it as well....We "consume" to live. And live well we do. Some more than others. Some consume in a more lavish way with fur coats, nice leather clothing, and yes Ivory for artwork and cue parts. Just because you focus on condemning such a tiny aspect of human existence doesn't mean you can EXCLUDE yourself and self rituous holier than thou attitude while you willingly participate in the SAME indescetions you are accusing others of... So ya see you're actually describing yourself and don't give two s#%^* about the world around you either then.. "Pot calling......"
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I don't care too much about whether my pool cue has ivory or not,
but I do care about laws that punish innocent people because "someone else" may commit a crime.

There are lots of examples of these types of laws, this is just one more.....

Hardly the case. Anyone that wants ivory knows where it comes from - the tusk of an elephant. Sometimes, the tusk has fallen off the elephant. However, seeing as elephants aren't indigenous to 1st world countries, poachers have found out that ivory sells for nearly as much as drugs. If elephants weren't an endangered species, we wouldn't need to ban ivory. The only way to stop the demand is to make the material illegal.

Pianos have long been made with non ivory keys. Why can't pool cues catch up with an industry that used 1000 times more ivory than it? I don't see any problem punishing people who want ivory goods. Like I say....you know where it comes from.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Do you live in an igloo or cave? Those are the only two dwellings I can think of that don't use any living thing to build...How do you get your heat and air conditioning? All heat and air is derived the use of wood, gas, or oil which IS are the bones and blood of Mother Earth...Do you own a car or even take public transportation? So you do use some of mothers blood...How about a leather belt of jacket? Gotta slaughter those cows to have that luxury... How about clothing... Gotta embarrass those sheep but trimming them naked. Soooo demeaning..:rolleyes:...Do you eat? That's right eat.. ANYTHING.. All food comes from what was once a living thing....I can go on and on... Ya see EVERYBODY "takes" from this earth. YOU are no exception. If elephants, in fact ALL animals, understood the lifestyle humans enjoy they would want a piece of it as well....We "consume" to live. And live well we do. Some more than others. Some consume in a more lavish way with fur coats, nice leather clothing, and yes Ivory for artwork and cue parts. Just because you focus on condemning such a tiny aspect of human existence doesn't mean you can EXCLUDE yourself and self rituous holier than thou attitude while you willingly participate in the SAME indescetions you are accusing others of... So ya see you're actually describing yourself and don't give two s#%^* about the world around you either then.. "Pot s
calling......"

Stupidest.
Post.
Ever.

Really.

Based on your above statements, I will go kill my neighbour and eat them....because, hey....we're all raping the world. Pathetic.
 
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MDSPHOTO

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
California's ban on ivory is likely to have little impact on ivory use and sourcing. Unfortunately, if there is a market for it, Ivory will continue to be harvested and sold on the open or black market.
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
I highly doubt that USPS 'Ivory Cops' are going to be on the 'lookout' for a pool cue with Ivory inlays, joints ferrules etc. being shipped illegally within the USA.

True, but California will look for a couple of scalps for the publicity. They'll find some small cue-maker (or other artisans - knife maker, etc.) and hang him in order to get headlines.

The cue-maker won't even have to have used ivory. He could have used a substitute. The regulator will get the headlines, the cue-maker will pay $10,000 in attorney's fees to clear his name...but that will happen years after the indictment and headlines. The regulator knows that people will read the headlines and think "Good, they're going after those scumbags!" The fact that the regulator dropped the case years later (after bankrupting the cue-maker) won't even get mentioned in the news.

It happens every day.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How About Trying To Stay on Point

Thanks for your posts..........it would be nice to stay on point though.

I clearly conceded the law is what it is........so your opinion of the ban being appropriate or inappropriate is completely non sequitur to the topic I raised for discussion......the impact on cue-makers, cue values, etc., not whether you think the law is spot on or completely off target. You either obey the law or else suffer the consequences which can be severe.

We can banter back & forth all day long and trade barbs or sarcasms but it has no effect on the enactment of the ban on July 1, 2016. And yes, you ship your cues anywhere in the USA because ownership of ivory is not illegal but there's a caveat. If you have to pass through customs, better leave the cues with ivory at home.

I think the ban will impact CA cue-makers......it will cost them some custom cue orders. When you order a cue costing several, or many thousands of dollars, you want the cue made the exact way you want it to be, not the way the cue-maker is legally restricted to make the cue.......you aren't going to settle for Juma or any other faux ivory material when you order a cue costing $5-6k or even a lot more too with some of these big names like Ernie or Ed. There's no way I'd let any cue-maker make my cue differently than the exact way I wanted it to be made.......it's my money and so I get to say how the cue gets made......presuming I didn't reside in CA, I'd just go find another top name cue-maker outside of CA whom can make my cue using ivory.

So regardless of whether you are a bleeding heart environmentalist or an avid hunter, let's focus on the business aspects of the ivory ban for California cue-makers, or cue-makers anywhere that ivory is prohibited from being used in artifacts and pool cues. Your opinion of California's ivory ban is really inconsequential since the law has been passed. How CA cue-makers are affected and the resultant impact on cue values that can't be made again unless the cue-maker moves out of the state.....the business aspects of the ivory ban........that's what up for discussion.

Matt B.

p.s. Since this is a public forum, anyone can post anything they like......
even if it portrays their narrow-mindedness and general ignorance.
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
..the business aspects of the ivory ban........that's what up for discussion.

Matt B.

p.s. Since this is a public forum, anyone can post anything they like......
even if it portrays their narrow-mindedness and general ignorance.

Where will you be canvassing for signatures or protesting? Youve got enough wind to get the issue back on the table. This is at least your 3rd thread on this topic, if not more now. The business aspect has already been summed up for you each time:

Clearly, ivory is off the table. None of the premier makers will suffer terribly over it. They will lose a miniscule amount of margin, that's really it.

Ernie will still get orders for incredible inlay work, he will just bring gold back into style, or platinum, or whatever fun exotic material his customers choose.

Boo hoo, can't get an ivory joint anymore. Any of the political parts of the discussion belong in NPR.
 

cueaddicts

AzB Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't know why anyone would want to live in Kalifornia....don't the Kardashians live there. :p
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
Stupidest.
Post.
Ever.

Really.

Based on your above statements, I will go kill my neighbour and eat them....because, hey....we're all raping the world. Pathetic.

Your response is whats pathetic. YOU "categorize" the use of ivory as one of shameful negativity. So at least now we know where to get our answers to EVERYTHING.:rolleyes:.. When someone responds like you did to a post like mine maybe it will show that you may NOT be the one who has all the answers....
 
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