1 tip english vs 2 tips english
- Thread starter dgem
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randyg said:
I think it can
If you use cusions. (not clear if u mean spin after impact with a cussion) If you shoot it too soft the 2tip english will fade due to friction to one tip english by the time it gets to the cussion, and so result in the same angle after impact with cussion, if you would shoot it harder, so the english wont fade and the cb keeps a, close to constant, 1tip english it will have the same angle. (aproximative ofcourse, as speed will also vary the rebound angle..)
I think in for example a cb in middle of table and ob against a rail, you can get the same thing, if you would replace 2tips with 1tip + 1tip draw (maybe the exact numbers are wrong, but some draw can do the same thing as side on some shots.
alot depends on the angle that it gets into a cussion, the speed, the friction of the cloth, the grip the ball can get on the cussion. Play a MASSIVE spin shot but let it hit the cussion at 0.1km/h it wont spin (aka the rebound angle wont be as big) as much as if you would hit it at 10km/h, so speed MUST have an influence
math reason why.
spin = X rotations / seconds. if the circonference of a cb = Y cm, you could write it also as km/h by doing ( X * (Y/10000 ) km / 3600 h ) to have Z km/h.
now if you hit the cb with 2 tips of english at 10km/h , the circonference at the place where the tip touches the cb, is bigger then if you would hit it with 1 tip of english. So to get the same rotations/second or km/h you would have to accelerate faster aka "hit it harder".
or am I completly wrong? :embarrassed2:
if you arent talking about cussion contact, IF you play a stop shot with one 1tip or a folow with one tip, the path of the cb wont be the same, so speed does make a difference, so why wouldn't it be possible that 2 tips = 1 tip for cb path after impact.
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dgem said:
You're going to get a wide variety of answers to this, because you've used some terms that are vague in this context: "spin" and "the same".
What is "the same spin"?
If you mean an identical rotational velocity of the CB immediately after leaving the tip, then the answer is YES.
If you mean the same amount of draw on a dead straight shot, then the answer is YES.
If you mean the same distance of follow, and the CB and OB aren't very close together, then the answer is NO.
If you mean the same amount of effect on the angle the CB comes off the rail with side spin, then the answer is NO.
If you mean the same CB path on a draw or follow shot where the balls aren't lined up totally straight, then the answer is NO.
If you mean the same amount of time the CB spins in place after a dead straight stop shot with sidespin, then the answer is YES.
I could go on all day.
The key is this: in many (most?) situations on a pool table, absolute spin is not as important as spin/speed ratio. The amount of angle created when a side-spinning ball hits a rail and comes back out, for instance, is a function of spin/speed ratio. This is highly important on many positional shots. The shape of the CB path after a non-straight shot with draw or follow is a function of both spin and speed. This is also highly important on many shots, especially if you're trying to avoid scratches or obstacles, or break out clusters. A draw shot where the CB and OB are not close together is another example where both spin and speed are highly important; a ball can have an extreme amount of draw on it when it leaves the tip, but if it doesn't have the speed to get to the OB in a short amount of time, much of the draw rubs off before contact.
So in general pool terms, you usually will not get the same results, even though you can get the same amount of spin.
-Andrew
This is my personal observation. They produce different kind of spin.
For 1 tip english the effect of the cue ball after hitting the object ball would produce more of a stun. Even when shot hard. Meaning it goes to the 90 degree line more where as for 2 tips it produce a slight curve from the 90 degree line.
After hitting the cushion, for one tip english the rebound angle of the cue ball is not that much compared to 2 tips which would rebound to a higher angle.
Different situation calls for different "gear" for the cue ball. What is right for the situation, I haven't studied it yet.
Any similar or different observations?:smile:
For 1 tip english the effect of the cue ball after hitting the object ball would produce more of a stun. Even when shot hard. Meaning it goes to the 90 degree line more where as for 2 tips it produce a slight curve from the 90 degree line.
After hitting the cushion, for one tip english the rebound angle of the cue ball is not that much compared to 2 tips which would rebound to a higher angle.
Different situation calls for different "gear" for the cue ball. What is right for the situation, I haven't studied it yet.
Any similar or different observations?:smile:
dgem said:
Your observations are exactly right, because the rebound angle and how sharply the ball curves away from the 90-degree tangent lines are both functions of spin-speed ratio. Learning this is essential if you want to really control the cue ball.
-Andrew
Actually, I'm guessing here, as you move the tip away from the center of CB, more of the energy from the cue will be transformed into rotational energy(spin). While closer to the center will increase cb speed, assuming the same hit. I believe that would be a geometrical progression, not linear.
Sooo... Ex. You would have to hit it more than 2x harder to double the spin from moving away from the center by the extra tip. Also I believe that the increase of spin as you move away from the center is a geometrical progression, curve of the ball thing, and would produce more than twice the spin when you double the distance.
So my answer to the OP is;
It depends on how much "harder" the person hits the CB when using one tip and trying to get the same spin as two tips. And frankly, I think with 3 tips at a medium speed, you would never be able to hit the CB hard enough to match it at 1 tip.
I need more coffee:boring2:
Sooo... Ex. You would have to hit it more than 2x harder to double the spin from moving away from the center by the extra tip. Also I believe that the increase of spin as you move away from the center is a geometrical progression, curve of the ball thing, and would produce more than twice the spin when you double the distance.
So my answer to the OP is;
It depends on how much "harder" the person hits the CB when using one tip and trying to get the same spin as two tips. And frankly, I think with 3 tips at a medium speed, you would never be able to hit the CB hard enough to match it at 1 tip.
I need more coffee:boring2:
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There are 2 things that come into play here, after you understand the english(left/right only, not top/bottom) only affect the trajectory of the cue ball upon hitting a cusion, ignoring the swerve factor.
First, you have to consider the spin vs velocity, if you are hitting the ball harder to get the same amount of spin, your velocity will be much higher, therefor the effects of the spin will be reduced due to the increased velocity.
Second, upon hitting the rail, the longer the ball is in contact with the rail, the more spin will take effect. The harder hit will result in less time on the cusion, so less spin will take effect from the rail.
First, you have to consider the spin vs velocity, if you are hitting the ball harder to get the same amount of spin, your velocity will be much higher, therefor the effects of the spin will be reduced due to the increased velocity.
Second, upon hitting the rail, the longer the ball is in contact with the rail, the more spin will take effect. The harder hit will result in less time on the cusion, so less spin will take effect from the rail.
Just taking spin in a vaccuum the answer is: Yes, it could.dgem said:
You can confirm this yourself by shooting a stop shot with different amounts of english and speed and seeing how long the cue ball spins in place.
A different test with draw -> shoot a stop shot with different speeds. Slow with lots of draw; medium speed with ~1 tip of draw; hard with barely any draw; warp speed with no draw. Not a perfect example, but it illustrates that speed and spin are related.
-td
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I don't get all this X and Y stuff, (Social Sciences degree
) but even if you are able to create more spin on the ball, it will not react off the cushion in the same way as if you were to use two tips of spin played softer.
Besides, although I rarely need to two tips, when I do use it the technique is to let the spin do all the work. In other words a medium soft stroke and the spin will take the ball around the angles.
) but even if you are able to create more spin on the ball, it will not react off the cushion in the same way as if you were to use two tips of spin played softer.Besides, although I rarely need to two tips, when I do use it the technique is to let the spin do all the work. In other words a medium soft stroke and the spin will take the ball around the angles.
The spin would be the same off the tip, but the action of the CB and OB could be quite different based on cut angle, cue elevation, shot distance, ball and cloth condition, the amount and type of English and spin, etc. For more info, see:dgem said:
Also, "tips" of English does not always have a clear meaning. For more info, see:
Regards,
Dave
dgem said:
If by spin you mean "revolutions per second," then yes. But as Andrew and others have pointed out, that's really NOT what people mean when they say "spin."
Just for the sake of those people who might be thinking Hey I can't possibly mean spin-to-speed ratio when I say spin--I don't even know what that means!!, I'll say it another way.
More spin means more revolutions per diamond of travel. Spin-to-speed ratio means exactly the same thing as revolutions per diamond of travel.