10 Ball "Pushout" Rule for Wrongfully Pocketed Balls - WHY?

Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
10 Ball Rules (at least those I've seen, including WPA and BCA/BCAPL) say that if you "wrongfully pocket" a ball, either by pocketing a ball on a called safety or by pocketing a ball without also legally pocketing a called ball, it's an automatic push shot and your opponent has the option of returning play to you.

I've been aware of and played by this rule for a long time, but I've always wondered what the reason for it is. I think I heard somewhere (here?) that it's to prevent too-easy safeties - is that it? If so, how does pocketing a ball make a safety too easy?

Anybody know? Bueller?

pj
chgo
 
10 Ball Rules (at least those I've seen, including WPA and BCA/BCAPL) say that if you "wrongfully pocket" a ball, either by pocketing a ball on a called safety or by pocketing a ball without also legally pocketing a called ball, it's an automatic push shot and your opponent has the option of returning play to you.

I've been aware of and played by this rule for a long time, but I've always wondered what the reason for it is. I think I heard somewhere (here?) that it's to prevent too-easy safeties - is that it? If so, how does pocketing a ball make a safety too easy?

Anybody know? Bueller?

pj
chgo

My understanding is that it eliminates advantages caused by lucky rolls.

So, let's say I call the 1 in the side and miss. The 1-ball rolls down and drops in the corner and at the same time the cue ball is frozen to the 3, leaving no shot on the 2. I benefit from lucky rolls and you're hooked even though I wasn't trying to play safe. With the play option, you're no longer screwed by my luck.

But I could be wrong... very few people play 10-ball in my area.
 
My understanding is that it eliminates advantages caused by lucky rolls.

So, let's say I call the 1 in the side and miss. The 1-ball rolls down and drops in the corner and at the same time the cue ball is frozen to the 3, leaving no shot on the 2. I benefit from lucky rolls and you're hooked even though I wasn't trying to play safe. With the play option, you're no longer screwed by my luck.
But you could get just as lucky after missing your shot and not making any ball. How does "wrongfully pocketing" a ball make it unacceptably luckier (or easier)?

pj
chgo
 
But you could get just as lucky after missing your shot and not making any ball. How does "wrongfully pocketing" a ball make it unacceptably luckier (or easier)?

pj
chgo

Like I said, I could be wrong... I usually play 10-ball with a guy who wants to use the option after every missed shot, regardless of where the OB goes. That sucks too.
 
BCAPL does not use the "illegally pocketed" ball in that fashion. Instead, it is incoming players choice to shoot or pass the shot back. We have used this in Beloit for tourneys the last couple of years and it works well.
 
BCAPL does not use the "illegally pocketed" ball in that fashion. Instead, it is incoming players choice to shoot or pass the shot back. We have used this in Beloit for tourneys the last couple of years and it works well.
That's what I meant:

"...your opponent has the option of returning play to you"

What do you mean when you say it "works well"? How so?

pj
chgo
 
That's what I meant:

Ahhh, quite a bit different than a pushout. But ok, I see the relationship ;)


I believe by making 10-ball a "call shot" game the attempt is being made to eliminate some of the "luck factor" of games like 9-ball.

That being said, this new "option" comes into play when a player misses their called shot, slops in another ball (or more). If you are "hooked" on the next shot you better believe you will be shooting again. If the next shot is open or playable then the incoming player will shoot. I believe this eliminates the luck factor of missing your shot and hooking the incoming player by accident.

The first question that comes up as a TD is often "can I play safe and pocket a ball?". The answer is sure, but your opponent has the choice. This puts a premium on playing a good safety. The example I'm often provided is what if the 2-ball is at one end of the table and the 3-ball at the other in a bad spot. Can I just make the 2 and call safe. Yes, but the opponent has the choice to pass it back or shoot the shot.
 
This seems to be common to most variations of 10-ball rules (see below) and was intensely debated when it was removed from a local house league's rule book. Many claimed it would unfairly permit gaining advantage through deliberately illegally pocketing a ball and leaving the opponent hooked. Months later, I have yet to see or hear of an instance where the absence of the rule created an advantage - all objections to its removal seem to have faded.

WPBA Rules
9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

BCAPL Rules
If you illegally pocket any ball, your opponent has the option to:
a. accept the table in position, or;
b. require you to shoot again.

NAPA Rules
9a. If the shooter pockets any numbered ball in any pocket other than the designated pocket, the ball remains pocketed (with the exception of the 10-ball which is to be
placed on the spot) and the incoming shooter has a “play option”. The incoming shooter may take his turn and play the table “AS IS” in the current position, or he can turn play back over to his opponent who must continue shooting.

TAP Rules
If the player pockets the called ball (lowest numbered) in a pocket other than the called pocket, that ball stays down and the opponent has the option to play the table as is, or, have the shooter shoot again.
 
Patrick, I really couldn't tell you "why" the rule is written this way. Perhaps tatcat2000 can chime in for the BCAPL or Bob Jewett might have some insight regarding the WPA.

But the effect of the rule, as opposed to the other rule set with the option on ANY miss (the so called WPA+ rules) is that it still leaves room for the two-way shot (shot/safety back-up) as part of the game. So perhaps that is the reason for the rule - to allow room for the the two-way shot.

The odd thing to me about the WPA rules is that there is never really a reason to actually call a safety. That seems a little weird to me for a call shot game.

The other odd thing about the WPA rules is that while the whole idea of call shot 10 Ball is to take some of the luck out of the game (like 9 Ball), the rule you are talking about actually seems to add some luck. Because there is no reason to call a safety, players in a tough situation will often call some wild "just in case" long-odds shot and occasionally make them - a shot they would never call except for this rule. To the extent making one of these wild shots is "lucky" it seems to add fortune to the game, not take it away. Sure it takes some skill to bank-kick-bank a ball into the hole, but the player usually isn't actually trying to make the shot as much as just he is just not wanting to give his opponent the table (or option) if something strange happens and it does go in.
 
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Ahhh, quite a bit different than a pushout. But ok, I see the relationship ;)


I believe by making 10-ball a "call shot" game the attempt is being made to eliminate some of the "luck factor" of games like 9-ball.

That being said, this new "option" comes into play when a player misses their called shot, slops in another ball (or more). If you are "hooked" on the next shot you better believe you will be shooting again. If the next shot is open or playable then the incoming player will shoot. I believe this eliminates the luck factor of missing your shot and hooking the incoming player by accident.

The first question that comes up as a TD is often "can I play safe and pocket a ball?". The answer is sure, but your opponent has the choice. This puts a premium on playing a good safety. The example I'm often provided is what if the 2-ball is at one end of the table and the 3-ball at the other in a bad spot. Can I just make the 2 and call safe. Yes, but the opponent has the choice to pass it back or shoot the shot.
My brother and I play this way in 9-ball too. But for us it seems like we are passing the shot back............... A LOT!!!!! lol
 
This seems to be common to most variations of 10-ball rules (see below) and was intensely debated when it was removed from a local house league's rule book. Many claimed it would unfairly permit gaining advantage through deliberately illegally pocketing a ball and leaving the opponent hooked. Months later, I have yet to see or hear of an instance where the absence of the rule created an advantage - all objections to its removal seem to have faded.

WPBA Rules
9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

BCAPL Rules
If you illegally pocket any ball, your opponent has the option to:
a. accept the table in position, or;
b. require you to shoot again.

NAPA Rules
9a. If the shooter pockets any numbered ball in any pocket other than the designated pocket, the ball remains pocketed (with the exception of the 10-ball which is to be
placed on the spot) and the incoming shooter has a “play option”. The incoming shooter may take his turn and play the table “AS IS” in the current position, or he can turn play back over to his opponent who must continue shooting.

TAP Rules
If the player pockets the called ball (lowest numbered) in a pocket other than the called pocket, that ball stays down and the opponent has the option to play the table as is, or, have the shooter shoot again.


I play in TAP, and their rules are as above, but they add another rule that serves as only confusion (at least to me):

"If the player pockets the called ball (other than the lowest numbered) in a pocket other than the called pocket, that ball stays down (except the 10-ball which is spotted) and play passes to the opponent with the cue ball where it stopped"
 
So the rule reduces luck without eliminating the 2-way shot. That's it?

I never thought luck was too big a factor in pool, so I was hoping for something more, like pocketing a ball somehow makes playing safe too easy.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick, I really couldn't tell you "why" the rule is written this way. Perhaps tatcat2000 can chime in for the BCAPL or Bob Jewett might have some insight regarding the WPA.

Maybe Bob can answer to the WPA's reasons, but I can't answer, other than to say BCAPL's intentions through at least 2014 are to mirror WSR. I just help pick the BCAPL's words and enforce them - how they want to play the game is neither my business nor concern, other than how it may affect/be affected by enforcement procedures.

On a side note, and on a subject that has come up before on the forums, I can say that the in the 2012-2014 edition of the BCAPL book the material concerning calling a safety has been removed from 10-Ball. Impact? Absolutely none. Removing safety play does not change the strategy or progress of the game one little bit. It was TOTALLY pointless in light of the Opponent's Option provision. All it did was take up space and make peoples' brains explode trying to figure it out why it was there.:smile:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
 
...in the 2012-2014 edition of the BCAPL book the material concerning calling a safety has been removed from 10-Ball.
Do you mean calling a safety and pocketing a ball will no longer give the opponent the choice of who shoots next?

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
Does all that stuff in your signature mean we're going to get billed for this opinion? :)

pj
chgo
 
I struggled with understanding the sense of it, too, but I think I finally saw some sense in that it forces the player to know more precise end points for both the cue ball and object ball(s) during a safe. With a true pocket safety, I think there are times in most games a player could call safe, play a stop shot on the lowest ball to hook the opponent behind another ball, while not really caring about the precise route of the object ball, because if something gets knocked in, they still have a great safe. Without allowing pocket safeties, the player can be penalized more of the time when they don't care as much about where the object ball(s) are going, so long as the cue will be hooked.

I agree it's inelegant, but at least I see (maybe) some rationale now.
 
Do you mean calling a safety and pocketing a ball will no longer give the opponent the choice of who shoots next?


pj
chgo

PJ, I don't think that's what Buddy means. I think he is just confirming what I was saying - that since there is no reason to call a safety under the WPA style rules that just over complicates the rule book to even have safeties discussed in the 10 Ball rules. The thing about wrongfully pocketed balls is not in the rule section regarding safety play, so it won't change this at all.

Even under the rules as now written, it makes no difference whether you call a shot or a safety. Either way if you pocket a ball illegally your opponent has the option. So getting rid of the safety language in the rules doesn't change anything about the illegally pocketed ball option.

Of course you might want to play a safety but there really is no reason to call it.
 
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Even under the rules as now written, it makes no difference whether you call a shot or a safety. Either way if you pocket a ball illegally your opponent has the option. So getting rid of the safety language in the rules doesn't change anything about the illegally pocketed ball option.
Thanks. That's a good change.

pj
chgo
 
Even under the rules as now written, it makes no difference whether you call a shot or a safety. Either way if you pocket a ball illegally your opponent has the option. So getting rid of the safety language in the rules doesn't change anything about the illegally pocketed ball option.

Of course you might want to play a safety but there really is no reason to call it.

Ex-actly right. (With apologies to Sam Eliott.)

B
 
Tips accepted...

Does all that stuff in your signature mean we're going to get billed for this opinion? :)

pj
chgo

Hell, there ain't no $$$ in reffing. Gotta make something somehow!:D
 
10 Ball Rules (at least those I've seen, including WPA and BCA/BCAPL) say that if you "wrongfully pocket" a ball, either by pocketing a ball on a called safety or by pocketing a ball without also legally pocketing a called ball, it's an automatic push shot and your opponent has the option of returning play to you.

I've been aware of and played by this rule for a long time, but I've always wondered what the reason for it is. I think I heard somewhere (here?) that it's to prevent too-easy safeties - is that it? If so, how does pocketing a ball make a safety too easy?

Anybody know? Bueller?

pj
chgo

I wondered this too at first and then suddenly it became quite obvious. The one ball hanging in a pocket and two ball in a cluster behind some balls way down yonder. No way in hell to get shape on the two so why not just call safe and shoot the one in leaving the cue ball right there? Let your opponent shoot from there and try to hit the two instead. Why not? Because there's no skill involved in your shot and none the less you have gained a huge advantage by removing the near target from the table. But in order to avoid argument as to what does and doesn't constitute this act, all illegally pocketed balls must be treated the same. If you don't understand why it must be this way then play a few sets with a buddy and take this rule away. Look for opportunities to play these kind of chicken shit safeties and see what happens. It gets ugly fast. It's not like 8 ball because you're not both shooting at the same balls although similar situations can come up near end game of 8 ball.

JC
 
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