100% Committed to Learning TOI

[KenK]

Committed to Learning TOI

Hello – first let me start off by saying I’m relatively new to this forum, just joining last month. I’ve played pool more or less since I was about 10 (30 years). I had a table in our basement growing up and I now have a table in my basement as well. I’ve been doing a weekly bar league with my dad for about the past 10 years and really enjoy the competition (and time with my dad) BUT I’m always looking for ways to become a better more knowledgably player. I think I’m an okay player but at times I’ll have to admit I have consistency issues and position play issues. I end up giving more games away to my opponents because of dumb mistakes. Pool is a hobby of mine that I am very passionate about. I’m thrilled that I found az billiards forums because now I have a wealth of knowledge within the pool community that I wouldn’t normally be exposed to by playing one night a week at a bar.

Which leads me to this thread….I would like to take the time to briefly comment regarding my experience with TOI thus far. One of the first things that caught my eye on the az billiards forum was all the threads commenting on the TOI shooting/aiming convention taught by Mr CJ Wiley. I will be honest, up until a few weeks ago I have never heard of this methodology. After reading all the positive feedback, I was very excited to purchase and watch the PPV of TOI.

So far I’ve played around with the TOI in short segments (1 hr here, 30 minutes there, etc) in my basement for the past two weeks. However, in the short period of time I have been using it, I have had enough of the “WOW” moments to know I’m totally 100% committed to learning the TOI system to the point where it becomes second nature in my shot routine. Thank you CJ Wiley!!!!

My practice sessions right now are pretty informal where I’m putting all the balls on the table and running them off. My shot selection varies from focusing on a shot I struggle with to focusing on position for next shot or a possible run out.

Does anybody have advice on practice drills utilizing TOI other than what I’m currently doing?

Hopefully by learning the TOI, my game will be elevated to the next level. I will post again in the next week or so with an update on how Im progressing.

Thanks,

Ken

 

[One Pocket John]

As CJ has stated, it took him thousands of hours to perfect TOI and use it on all of his shots.

I have over a hundred hours of use.

You have to be ready to change the way that you use to get position on the next ball.

As far as drills go, you could use Bert Kinisters 60 minute work out.

But to really get a feel for when to use TOI try to run racks of 9 or 10 ball.

The shot on the DVD where CJ sinks the 5 and then floats down for a shot on the 9 is cool. I do practice that shot.

Right now, in the early stages of learning TOI, when I come to the table I first determine if I can use TOI to get to the next shot. If I dont believe I can then its back to my old way of playing. (spin)

It would be nice though to have about 10 or 15 practice (drill) shots that CJ could select.

Have fun. :smile:

John

Edit: I found these drills, they may help.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17731117/Billiard-Drills

 

[duckie]

Put the cb and one Ob on the table. Send the cb two rails to hit the OB. This type of shot can show up in safety battle in 9 ball.

Let me know how that works.

Stick the cb to rack like is done at times in 14.1 as a safety.

How bout some carom shots and combos thrown it for just some good measure.

How bout drawing the CB straight back.

There are so many shots that TOI will not work on that it is not worth learning....of course this is my opinion just as there are those whose opinion is to use it on every shot.

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[CJ Wiley]

sounds frustrated

Put the cb and one Ob on the table. Send the cb two rails to hit the OB. This type of shot can show up in safety battle in 9 ball.

Let me know how that works.

Stick the cb to rack like is done at times in 14.1 as a safety.

How bout some carom shots and combos thrown it for just some good measure.

How bout drawing the CB straight back.

There are so many shots that TOI will not work on that it is not worth learning....of course this is my opinion just as there are those whose opinion is to use it on every shot.

Your game sounds frustrated. Sorry,duckie, you have to feel that way. :shrug:

 

[CJ Wiley]

without seeing you play it's difficult to "tailor make" something for you. Try this..

Hello – first let me start off by saying I’m relatively new to this forum, just joining last month. I’ve played pool more or less since I was about 10 (30 years). I had a table in our basement growing up and I now have a table in my basement as well. I’ve been doing a weekly bar league with my dad for about the past 10 years and really enjoy the competition (and time with my dad) BUT I’m always looking for ways to become a better more knowledgably player. I think I’m an okay player but at times I’ll have to admit I have consistency issues and position play issues. I end up giving more games away to my opponents because of dumb mistakes. Pool is a hobby of mine that I am very passionate about. I’m thrilled that I found az billiards forums because now I have a wealth of knowledge within the pool community that I wouldn’t normally be exposed to by playing one night a week at a bar.

Which leads me to this thread….I would like to take the time to briefly comment regarding my experience with TOI thus far. One of the first things that caught my eye on the az billiards forum was all the threads commenting on the TOI shooting/aiming convention taught by Mr CJ Wiley. I will be honest, up until a few weeks ago I have never heard of this methodology. After reading all the positive feedback, I was very excited to purchase and watch the PPV of TOI.

So far I’ve played around with the TOI in short segments (1 hr here, 30 minutes there, etc) in my basement for the past two weeks. However, in the short period of time I have been using it, I have had enough of the “WOW” moments to know I’m totally 100% committed to learning the TOI system to the point where it becomes second nature in my shot routine. Thank you CJ Wiley!!!!

My practice sessions right now are pretty informal where I’m putting all the balls on the table and running them off. My shot selection varies from focusing on a shot I struggle with to focusing on position for next shot or a possible run out.

Does anybody have advice on practice drills utilizing TOI other than what I’m currently doing?

Hopefully by learning the TOI, my game will be elevated to the next level. I will post again in the next week or so with an update on how Im progressing.

Thanks,

Ken

I have ways to improve with the TOI Technique, however, without seeing you play it's difficult to "tailor make" something for you. Here's some drills that I recommend that I posted last week to get you started. Once you do these get back to me and I'll start to help you with your TOI Study. I want everyone to experience TOI because it definitely opens the game up and then there's some more advanced things I can share once that foundation if built. Here's what I posted about drills to improve quick:

I go over several that I prefer in my 'Billiards Inside Secrets'

1) No practice stroke drill: You shoot each shot with no practice strokes so you have to get down on the cue ball more precisely.

2) The Extra Rail Drill: You play 9 Ball as usual, and you go to one extra rail on EVERY SHOT - this develops, builds and excersises a more powerful stroke

3) The Carom Drill: You play Eight Ball as usual, however, you must carom another ball after making ever ball. This is difficult and I"ve only ran the table a few times doing it....it gets more difficult as you get closer to the 8 Ball

4) The Touch Drill: You hold the cue with only two fingers in your back hand and play as usual- this gives a better feel for the cue

5) The Precision Drill: You choke up in FRONT of your wrap with your back hand and play as usual - this shows many new shots and also how much touch you can get by changing the location of your back hand

6) The TOI Drill: Play the 6 Ball Ghost (break, ball in hand and run out 6 balls), putting a "Touch Of Inside" on all your shots and combine this with the drills listed above for 10 minutes per drill.

All of these drills should be done for at least 20 straight minutes to get the FULL benefit. If you know the benefit before you start you probably need to do them longer. THE GAME IS THE TEACHER

 

[5am]

I just take my favorite drills, shot them with a TOI and see what happens. Problem areas become quickly apparent, particularly where I might have used outside english in the past and inside english seems counter-intuitive. Generally, I find a solution.

Personally, I seem bedeviled by using TOI on small angled shots, let's say 13 degrees or less just for arguments sake or less than a half-ball hit in TOI parlance, where the object ball is close to a long rail and I have to pot the object ball all the way down to the corner pocket. Looks deceptively easy when I'm standing over the shot, but with lining up center to center and then using TOI, my right side/left side brains want to have discussion, so to speak, about exactly just what the heck I think I'm doing. And moving up or down the vertical plane of the cue ball from center using TOI makes for some major changes in object ball direction after a hit, and that is taking much experimentation and practice from me in order to be able to dial in confidence on shot outcome.

I've been using TOI exclusively now for about four weeks under all conditions, including lots and lots of league play. Results have been very good. My game definitely seems to have stepped up a level.

C. J. is making a believer out me, if for the single reason that, as he points out, it's better to master and understand one type of shot rather than trying to futz around with all manner of inside/outside english.

 

[CJ Wiley]

there's trial and error present in pool no matter what level you reach

I just take my favorite drills, shot them with a TOI and see what happens. Problem areas become quickly apparent, particularly where I might have used outside english in the past and inside english seems counter-intuitive. Generally, I find a solution.

Personally, I seem bedeviled by using TOI on small angled shots, let's say 13 degrees or less just for arguments sake or less than a half-ball hit in TOI parlance, where the object ball is close to a long rail and I have to pot the object ball all the way down to the corner pocket. Looks deceptively easy when I'm standing over the shot, but with lining up center to center and then using TOI, my right side/left side brains want to have discussion, so to speak, about exactly just what the heck I think I'm doing. And moving up or down the vertical plane of the cue ball from center using TOI makes for some major changes in object ball direction after a hit, and that is taking much experimentation and practice from me in order to be able to dial in confidence on shot outcome.

I've been using TOI exclusively now for about four weeks under all conditions, including lots and lots of league play. Results have been very good. My game definitely seems to have stepped up a level.

C. J. is making a believer out me, if for the single reason that, as he points out, it's better to master and understand one type of shot rather than trying to futz around with all manner of inside/outside english.

Yes, mastering the one shot to use as much as possible gives you the maximum feel and touch....it's like playing with the same cue ball rather than one that's different weights. Using spin makes the cue ball seem lighter, using TOI makes the cue ball seem heavier. Playing a game somewhere in between makes the cue ball feel like several weights.

Everyone will have their own path to understanding new techniques, and TOI is certainly new to most players. I mentioned earlier that I always line up Center(cue ball) to Center (object ball) and when shooting long shots I line up Center/Center on even thin cut shots and when the balls are close together it's usually Center/Edge.

It's either one way or the other (there's trial and error present in pool no matter what level you reach), and the easiest way to tell is if you're over cutting using Center to Edge, just try Center to Center. Of if Center to Center doesn't look/feel right on close shots, just back away and try Center to Edge. I've said many times that pool is a "Feel Game," and TOI enables you to amplify this, so don't get caught up in your visual game too much, let instincts be part of your game too. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Duckie,

If you have not invested in one of these you should consider it.

It will save you a lot of time.

http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/First-Time-Here-Learn-How-to-Post-and-More/Typing-the-same-material-over-and-over-Use-a-Macro-Video/td-p/157

Put the cb and one Ob on the table. Send the cb two rails to hit the OB. This type of shot can show up in safety battle in 9 ball.

Let me know how that works.

Stick the cb to rack like is done at times in 14.1 as a safety.

How bout some carom shots and combos thrown it for just some good measure.

How bout drawing the CB straight back.

There are so many shots that TOI will not work on that it is not worth learning....of course this is my opinion just as there are those whose opinion is to use it on every shot.

 

[Mikjary]

I just take my favorite drills, shot them with a TOI and see what happens. Problem areas become quickly apparent, particularly where I might have used outside english in the past and inside english seems counter-intuitive. Generally, I find a solution.

Personally, I seem bedeviled by using TOI on small angled shots, let's say 13 degrees or less just for arguments sake or less than a half-ball hit in TOI parlance, where the object ball is close to a long rail and I have to pot the object ball all the way down to the corner pocket. Looks deceptively easy when I'm standing over the shot, but with lining up center to center and then using TOI, my right side/left side brains want to have discussion, so to speak, about exactly just what the heck I think I'm doing. And moving up or down the vertical plane of the cue ball from center using TOI makes for some major changes in object ball direction after a hit, and that is taking much experimentation and practice from me in order to be able to dial in confidence on shot outcome.

I've been using TOI exclusively now for about four weeks under all conditions, including lots and lots of league play. Results have been very good. My game definitely seems to have stepped up a level.

C. J. is making a believer out me, if for the single reason that, as he points out, it's better to master and understand one type of shot rather than trying to futz around with all manner of inside/outside english.

Try lining up center to edge instead of center to center and see what happens. Your brain is looking for more information for setting up on the correct line. CJ's benchmarks of center to center and center to edge are consistent starting points for your eyes and brain to use for alignment to the shot.

CJ suggests changing setups (everybody sees them differently) and learning what works for you.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Put the cb and one Ob on the table. Send the cb two rails to hit the OB. This type of shot can show up in safety battle in 9 ball.

Let me know how that works.

Stick the cb to rack like is done at times in 14.1 as a safety.

How bout some carom shots and combos thrown it for just some good measure.

How bout drawing the CB straight back.

There are so many shots that TOI will not work on that it is not worth learning....of course this is my opinion just as there are those whose opinion is to use it on every shot.

Duckie,

These suggestions have nothing to do with the system, although they can be done. When I shoot to a rail I use whatever spin is needed. When I shoot at an object ball, I look at the position to see if I can use TOI. Some racks I use it exclusively, others not much. There is no mandate to use it only except to learn it in practicing with it.

After learning it, I don't think of using TOI as much to pocket balls anymore. It's a gauge to see where I'm hitting on the pockets. I use it mainly now for the position play. Give it a try or please give it a rest.

Best,
Mike

 

[5am]

Try lining up center to edge instead of center to center and see what happens. Your brain is looking for more information for setting up on the correct line. CJ's benchmarks of center to center and center to edge are consistent starting points for your eyes and brain to use for alignment to the shot.

CJ suggests changing setups (everybody sees them differently) and learning what works for you.

Best,
Mike

You're right. I have found that lining up center to edge works far more consistently for me.

 

[CJ Wiley]

you can use your tip to define the specific angle (using the TOI)

Try lining up center to edge instead of center to center and see what happens. Your brain is looking for more information for setting up on the correct line. CJ's benchmarks of center to center and center to edge are consistent starting points for your eyes and brain to use for alignment to the shot.

CJ suggests changing setups (everybody sees them differently) and learning what works for you.

Best,
Mike

That's an accurate description, Mike, we just need a consistent way to align from the cue ball to the object ball. Center and edge of the object ball will give you two reference points from which you can create any angle.

Our subconscious mind can do complex tasks, however, you still need accurate, consistent information as a "referential index" to compare, calibrate and define consciously what angle needs to be created (for each given shot situation).

There's a spot on the cue ball, when connected to the center or edge of the object ball that will give your mind that connection, then you can use your tip to define the specific angle (using the TOI). You don't have to look for an imaginary "contact point," or "ghost ball," you just need to connect the cue ball to the object ball and then let your mind "connect the dots" with your TOI "tip target". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[dirtychapurado2]

I'm in the same boat as KenK as far as practice time, only difference is I dont have a table at home, and the experience (only 10-11 yrs). I'm still in the early stages of TOI as well, so still at the process of learning and getting used to. I'm still trying to understand the 3 pocket sys. I go through my preshot routine which are, address the cb in the relation of the pocket, where to position the cb after the shot, get down, concentrate at the CB, then TOI. I cant really tell how the OB goes to the pocket, unless I miss.

But, I'm committed to, and still trying to master a shot, and running out. Im on about 4-5 ball runs but atleast I know I got a couple of balls better. Using the TOI for postion play is incredible, I almost not to think about it much. IMO, TOI is a very powerful info/sys.

 

[CJ Wiley]

If you don't hit where you want on one shot make the adjustment for your next shot

I'm in the same boat as KenK as far as practice time, only difference is I dont have a table at home, and the experience (only 10-11 yrs). I'm still in the early stages of TOI as well, so still at the process of learning and getting used to. I'm still trying to understand the 3 pocket sys. I go through my preshot routine which are, address the cb in the relation of the pocket, where to position the cb after the shot, get down, concentrate at the CB, then TOI. I cant really tell how the OB goes to the pocket, unless I miss.

But, I'm committed to, and still trying to master a shot, and running out. Im on about 4-5 ball runs but atleast I know I got a couple of balls better. Using the TOI for postion play is incredible, I almost not to think about it much. IMO, TOI is a very powerful info/sys.

This is a powerful system, allow me give you some input to make it more powerful as you develop your practice routine. This is what works for me:

Try watching the object ball go in the pocket after you hit the cue ball. When you get down on the cue ball it's best to give it your full attention for 4-5 seconds, until you see exactly the spot you want to make contact with connected to your tip.

Then, and only then do you look up at the object ball, then back to make sure your tip is still connected to that same spot on the cue ball. Then look up, hesitate slightly and extend your tip quickly through that spot WHILE looking at the object ball. WATCH the object ball go in the pocket without moving your head.

It's important to see (and hear) your object ball go in the center of the pocket (unless you want it to go in one side) so you get that feedback. It's like shooting arrows at a target, you want to see where you are hitting so you can make any minute adjustments. With TOI those adjustments are with speed or going more or less TOI.

If you don't hit where you want on one shot make the adjustment for your next shot. The outcome with your Touch Of Inside shot pattern is to hit the center (or where you want) EVERY TIME.....except nothing less, especially when you're practicing, then take it to the playing table. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[dirtychapurado2]

Got it, and will try to implement it...maybe an off topic but I was thinking something yesterday while practicing that I actually stood up and thought of it that maybe Bustamante is shooting like TOI (alot of folks telling me i have the same stroke as his, but I didnt think so). Im not saying thats what he's using, but just cause back home in the Philippines I always hear the term "pectus" in english is "Spin" and from all the videos I've seen him play he seemed to look at the cb without putting the cuetip at the spot where he's going to hit it, and then when strokes and hit the cb he hit that spot with accuracy. Maybe, on his pre shot routine, he had to do TOI (hehehe) then he do his final adjustment in his head then shoot... This is just a whole bunch of maybe's, but in a way there could be a similarity...

 

[KenK]

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everybody for their excellent comments and suggestions for helping me learn TOI. I now have some direction on making the most out of my practice time. As I progress and as questions come up, I will be sure to reach out to the community.

Thanks again!!
Ken

 

[leehayes]

Put the cb and one Ob on the table. Send the cb two rails to hit the OB. This type of shot can show up in safety battle in 9 ball.

Let me know how that works.

Stick the cb to rack like is done at times in 14.1 as a safety.

How bout some carom shots and combos thrown it for just some good measure.

How bout drawing the CB straight back.

There are so many shots that TOI will not work on that it is not worth learning....of course this is my opinion just as there are those whose opinion is to use it on every shot.

This from the guy with the Bruce Lee quote...go figure

 

[dirtychapurado2]

This is a powerful system, allow me give you some input to make it more powerful as you develop your practice routine. This is what works for me:

Try watching the object ball go in the pocket after you hit the cue ball. When you get down on the cue ball it's best to give it your full attention for 4-5 seconds, until you see exactly the spot you want to make contact with connected to your tip.

Then, and only then do you look up at the object ball, then back to make sure your tip is still connected to that same spot on the cue ball. Then look up, hesitate slightly and extend your tip quickly through that spot WHILE looking at the object ball. WATCH the object ball go in the pocket without moving your head.

It's important to see (and hear) your object ball go in the center of the pocket (unless you want it to go in one side) so you get that feedback. It's like shooting arrows at a target, you want to see where you are hitting so you can make any minute adjustments. With TOI those adjustments are with speed or going more or less TOI.

If you don't hit where you want on one shot make the adjustment for your next shot. The outcome with your Touch Of Inside shot pattern is to hit the center (or where you want) EVERY TIME.....except nothing less, especially when you're practicing, then take it to the playing table. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Just got back from the pool hall today and I followed your post. I did notice alot that the OB goes to the "A" side of the pocket if it cuts to the right and vice versa. After that I played a few games of 9 ball and I got frustrated, just dont know what it is. I couldnt make a ball and for some reason not so consistent hitting and missed alot of shots and couldnt run 3 balls.

I watched the PPV again just now and I felt like I wasted quality time practicing because I know the reason why I missed alot. It's my acceleration, I hit most shots today pretty soft and I couldnt stay on my speed.

One question, when you move parallel inside, on a closed bridge is it loose or you just move your hand slightly? how bout on an open bridge? this maybe a beginners question, if so I apologize.

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI and acceleration are the the two things that MUST go together!

Just got back from the pool hall today and I followed your post. I did notice alot that the OB goes to the "A" side of the pocket if it cuts to the right and vice versa. After that I played a few games of 9 ball and I got frustrated, just dont know what it is. I couldnt make a ball and for some reason not so consistent hitting and missed alot of shots and couldnt run 3 balls.

I watched the PPV again just now and I felt like I wasted quality time practicing because I know the reason why I missed alot. It's my acceleration, I hit most shots today pretty soft and I couldnt stay on my speed.

One question, when you move parallel inside, on a closed bridge is it loose or you just move your hand slightly? how bout on an open bridge? this maybe a beginners question, if so I apologize.

There's no "beginner questions" it's always wise to ask than wonder.

Yes, TOI and acceleration are the the two things that MUST go together! If you hit the touch of inside soft you saw what will happen, so increase your shot speed to where the cue ball will go up and down a 9' table 1.5 times (27') and try to hit every shot that speed for an hour. This isn't how you will end up playing, however, you need to get the feeling of power in your game. Acceleration and accuracy are closely related in pocket billiards.

I don't move my bridge hand on the table, I shift it with pressure and FIRM it up at the same time. You want your bridge to be very firm and stable so it will allow the cue to pass freely, yet control it absolutely. On my warm up strokes I sometime feel the cue burn between my fingers to make sure it's very firm and controlled.

You must seek to control your cue with both hands, this how you will develop the control of the TIP. The TIP of your cue is what you contact the cue ball with, and it must be help SQUARE to the cue ball, so you know the cue is perfectly straight.

Feel like you're pressing your fingers in to the cloth on the table when you go down on the table, however, you can slide your fingers while setting your bridge. There are many great players that slide forward into the shot while they're setting their bridge, then after they're set they don't move their bridge hand until AFTER the cue ball is contacted.