12.75 vs 13mm shafts?

R

racer rx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I notice some Cue manufactures are doing 12.75 mm shafts.
Such as Meucci and Predator.

However companies such as Viking and Mcdermott are sticking to 13mm as there standard size.

Why? The 12.75 shafts feel like toothpicks to me when playing on Bar box tables, with the larger ball size.

Any thoughts?
 
im very interested about this myself. Thank you for posting this question. Im having a new shaft fitted to my viking cue. it has a 12.5mm shaft. Im still not decided if a want it a 13mm or 12.75.
Sorry i cant answer your question.
 
racer rx said:
I notice some Cue manufactures are doing 12.75 mm shafts.
Such as Meucci and Predator.

However companies such as Viking and Mcdermott are sticking to 13mm as there standard size.

Why? The 12.75 shafts feel like toothpicks to me when playing on Bar box tables, with the larger ball size.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I just ordered a custom cue. The cue maker said to go with the 13 because the larger size increases accuracy and they get smaller over time. We have a sl7 in our poolhall who uses 14mm. He is not very good on long shots so maybe that is why he uses it, to get more accuracy.

Laura
 
I'm rather curious as to the answer to this myself. One might cite the rearward balance and lesser tip weight of a 12.75mm which weighs the same as a 13mm. I wonder just how much weight is taken off the end of a stick 0.25mm less in diameter, understanding that it will affect the taper all the way back. That lesser mass just might be significant enough to impact squirt more than the lessened stiffness of a thinner shaft will detract from it.

Beyond the lesser mass at the tip, I cannot come up with any good reason. It's rather like the battery thing in my chosen business, hardware - all manufacturers build batteries for cordless drills which aren't interchangeable, thereby locking you in to replacing with their brand and making it more difficult for a generic manufacturer to economically compete.

With all due respect, Laura, I'm curious as to how the wood, ferrule and tip will become smaller (decrease in diameter) as time goes by.
 
Imo, the tip diameter has less significance than the shaft's taper and quality of wood.
I myself do not like the 13MM tip because it just looks too big in front of the cb. Also, people argue all the time that a "pro-taper" causes more squirt. Yet most good players I know would rather play with this taper so they can stroke smoother and they'll handle the squirt.
This low-mass end has been popularized by Predator. However, I don't see 3 cushion players playing with a 314. Most of them use a stiff 12mm tipped shaft.
Most cue companies would rather leave the shaft at 13MM because there is less of a chance for the wood to warp at this size than 12.75 mm. Joss leaves their shafts at 13.25MM.
 
Mr. Bludworth told me that when you go below 13mm, you are messing with the integrity of the shaft. I believe it, however, I prefer 12.5mm. I wouldn't go below that. I would also make sure the shaft wood was sealed. I am lucky in that I have a cue repair lathe and can seal my shafts myself. They don't warp.
I have a couple of friends who have had 11mm shafts made for their custom cues. There are two problems I see with this. (1) they can't use layered tips. To much of what holds them together is removed. They split! Both of them have this problem. So now one of them has had me put on a Le Pro and the other one e-mailed me today and asked if I would put a non layered tip on his cue. (2) When they try hit the cue ball hard, there is no telling what is going to happen. I watche this one guy, when he tries to put a lot of juice on the ball, he usually misses. I don't know, maybe squirt or what ever. I think it is ridiculous. I would bet that if their shafts arn't warped now, it won't be long. I can understand giving something differant a try, but if it don't work, give it up. I don't see it working! Just my opinion. I hope some cuemakers will read this thread and inform us all. I like the facts.
Best Regards, Don
 
I think switching to those plywood/flat laminated shafts is not a bad idea for those wanting thin with long barrel type shafts.
 
Joseph, I have been told that most of the snooker cues that are 11mm are made of ash. I have also been told by an experienced cuemaker that ash makes the best shaft. What do you think?
I have hit the laminated shafts you are refering to and really don't like the hit. I hit with a Meucci laminated shaft. It had a black dot in the middle of a white dot, or maybe it was the other way around. Are you familiar with these and what are they called? Black dot?
Thanks for your informative posts. Don Purdy
 
The new Predator shaft is going to have a 11.75 diameter with a Euro taper!!!!

Many people have told me that the lesser diameter the lesser deflection. Any truth to this?
 
Weapon X said:
The new Predator shaft is going to have a 11.75 diameter with a Euro taper!!!!

Many people have told me that the lesser diameter the lesser deflection. Any truth to this?
Click to expand...
It's because it has a billiard taper.
It's very stiff.
 
shaft size

Hello,

I don't think you can compare the performance of all 13 mm or 12.75 mm shafts since There are so many different grades of wood . Barringer cues alone has 7 different grades of shaft or shaft dowels.
I don't call myself a cue maker but I do make some cues and have dealt with 4 different suppliers/cue makers. As the supply of old growth lumber has dwindled the quality and density has declined also. This is what I have been told by cuemakers and poolroom owners , therefore the increase in shaft size up to 13mm and over.
I bought a schon in '86 and the shaft was 12 mm, 2 years ago a friend made another shaft for it at 13 mm and it weighed 19.5 oz with either shaft on it, same ferrule, tip , joint. I made a 13.4 mm shaft for my first cue that I do play with now and I love it. I do believe the quality of shaft wood we get now is not as good and that's the reason for the different variances in performance but that's just MHO!!!!!!!! Maybe Blud or other cue makers will confirm or debunk this. B
 
12.75 vs 13mm shafts

Don't worry about what size to use. Relegate those thoughts to the recreational players who agonize and analyze everything to to death. What difference would it make in their game. The size of the tip has nothing whatever to do with accurate and consistent aiming and pocketing. It is the player who has the skill, not tip size.
 
is there a reputable pro or cuemaker out there? can you give your opinion on this. thanks.
 
.

I use a 12.25mm shaft for my shooter. Most players up here in Canada are using smaller then 13mm (perhaps the last effects of a once snooker rich nation). Most of the top players here swear by the smaller tip diameters, we play alot of 9-ball though. On a bar box I guess you can get away with the larger tip diameter but in 9-ball I think 13mm is just too large.

I don't at all understand why people would think the larger tip diameters would have more accuracy, if anything I would think the reverse is true. Take a large tipped cue like a 13mm and try to pot balls on a 6x12 snooker table, you will find it way harder then potting balls with the smaller tip size. This is just an extreme example of the large vs small tip size due to the size of snooker balls. Use a 14mm tip and you will lose some accuracy imo.
 
For what it's worth. maybe I can post this without getting hammered.


Yes, there is a great deal of differance playing with a 12.50 , or 12.75., and 13 mm. The 13 is stiffer, and will squirt the ball more than the thinner shafts up to a point. When you get down pretty small, you will have to much whip.

When you do have a smaller shaft, it's easier to draw your ball on certain shots, without squriting the ball and over drawing.

A 13mm will last longer than a smaller shaft, but that's no reason the go big, if can play with the smaller sizes.

The tapper also comes in to play. You can take a stiff 12.5 mm shaft and it will stiffer than a 13 or 13.25, with a longer tapper. All of this depends on the tapper and the wood make up.

Play with what you feel is best. If your not happy, try another size and work from that point on.

please post with more questions, if need be.

hope this helps one and all.
blud
 
blud said:
For what it's worth. maybe I can post this without getting hammered.


Yes, there is a great deal of differance playing with a 12.50 , or 12.75., and 13 mm. The 13 is stiffer, and will squirt the ball more than the thinner shafts up to a point. When you get down pretty small, you will have to much whip.

When you do have a smaller shaft, it's easier to draw your ball on certain shots, without squriting the ball and over drawing.

A 13mm will last longer than a smaller shaft, but that's no reason the go big, if can play with the smaller sizes.

The tapper also comes in to play. You can take a stiff 12.5 mm shaft and it will stiffer than a 13 or 13.25, with a longer tapper. All of this depends on the tapper and the wood make up.

Play with what you feel is best. If your not happy, try another size and work from that point on.

please post with more questions, if need be.

hope this helps one and all.
blud
Click to expand...

OK this all makes sense. I got into a big disscussion with one of the players here in Calgary about cues and such. He said that the smaller the shaft diameter the less the ball defelected on a shot. Perfect exapmle of where this comes into play is the 90 degree angle cut on the bottom rail from the headspot. You have to put huge siding on the cueball and basically hit the rail right before the ball and the siding then makes the cueball cut in the object ball. This shot is the perfect test to see how much your cue deflects the cueball when imparting siding. You aim and reaim the shot until you know how much on or off the object ball you have to shoot to make the shot.

The cue I have while it is only 12.25mm is super stiff and that is what got the debate all started. He said he liked alot more whip in his cue due to less defelection. Now I understand the theory behind the more whip having less deflection due to the cue actually bending at impact and therefore absorbing the normal pushing to the side that a stiff cue does. Problem I have with whippy cues is all of the sudden you have way less "feel" due to more vibration comming back down the cue on any shot you have to shoot with some pace. It is a catch 22 and you cannot have the best of both worlds with less deflection and yet still have a great "feeling" cue.

One thing that really makes me wonder is what the heck is up with predator. Supposedly they dont deflect the cueball all that much (according to their marketing staff anyways). Yet these cues are large diameter and are super stiff. If anything these cues should be deflecting the cueball to a large extent when putting alot of siding on the ball due to all the above chat. The only thing that the pie sectioning of their shafts do is create an artificial grain in the wood that makes the shaft alot stiffer then it would be without the sectioning.
 
I like a larger shaft, with a more conical taper13.25mm. I definately do not care for a pro taper. Less than 13mm just feels to small to me and I don't have large hands.

Cutting the frozen ball in might be a good test depending on how it is shot. To clarify, I use low inside spin and rely on aim and speed. If the speed is off too much, like to slow I'll hit it fat. I always thought a good test for Squirt was freeze two balls on the end rail. Use the c/b as a guide and space each ball 3/8" from the c/b. No more than that because you could drive a truck through. LOL With the c/b at the headstring fire it through with extreme side. Even with my large shafts no problem.

Rodd
 
I think that it is true that a thicker shaft makes the sweetspot in the cue ball bigger. A thinner shaft will produce more deflection with a slight swaying of the srtoke because of a smaller sweetspot.

However, a thick shaft diameter cannot compromise a snug closed bridge. If the fingers of the player are small, and he likes using the closed bridge, he should get a thinner shaft.
 
Celtic said:
OK this all makes sense. I got into a big disscussion with one of the players here in Calgary about cues and such. He said that the smaller the shaft diameter the less the ball defelected on a shot. Perfect exapmle of where this comes into play is the 90 degree angle cut on the bottom rail from the headspot. You have to put huge siding on the cueball and basically hit the rail right before the ball and the siding then makes the cueball cut in the object ball. This shot is the perfect test to see how much your cue deflects the cueball when imparting siding. You aim and reaim the shot until you know how much on or off the object ball you have to shoot to make the shot.

The cue I have while it is only 12.25mm is super stiff and that is what got the debate all started. He said he liked alot more whip in his cue due to less defelection. Now I understand the theory behind the more whip having less deflection due to the cue actually bending at impact and therefore absorbing the normal pushing to the side that a stiff cue does. Problem I have with whippy cues is all of the sudden you have way less "feel" due to more vibration comming back down the cue on any shot you have to shoot with some pace. It is a catch 22 and you cannot have the best of both worlds with less deflection and yet still have a great "feeling" cue.

One thing that really makes me wonder is what the heck is up with predator. Supposedly they dont deflect the cueball all that much (according to their marketing staff anyways). Yet these cues are large diameter and are super stiff. If anything these cues should be deflecting the cueball to a large extent when putting alot of siding on the ball due to all the above chat. The only thing that the pie sectioning of their shafts do is create an artificial grain in the wood that makes the shaft alot stiffer then it would be without the sectioning.
Click to expand...
Predator shafts have hollowed end and ultra-light ferrule. Predator shafts basically deflect off the cueball before it causes the cueball to squirt.
 
Rodd said:
I like a larger shaft, with a more conical taper13.25mm. I definately do not care for a pro taper. Less than 13mm just feels to small to me and I don't have large hands.

Cutting the frozen ball in might be a good test depending on how it is shot. To clarify, I use low inside spin and rely on aim and speed. If the speed is off too much, like to slow I'll hit it fat. I always thought a good test for Squirt was freeze two balls on the end rail. Use the c/b as a guide and space each ball 3/8" from the c/b. No more than that because you could drive a truck through. LOL With the c/b at the headstring fire it through with extreme side. Even with my large shafts no problem.

Rodd
Click to expand...


The whole point is where do you aim? Last cue I had had a huge amount of deflection and yet I could aim it very well even with a hard shot and extreme siding. This was totally due to me knowing exactly how much the cue defelected and my aiming compensated for the deflection (all subconsious though). If I actually looked at where I was aiming to make those extreme siding shots I was always actually aiming way onto the object ball to make the 90 degree angle cut and the deflection was the reason I ended up hitting the edge instead of hitting half of the object ball like I was aiming to do.

The cue I have now I still aim at about a quarter of the object ball when I am playing the 90 degree angle cut shot on the rail and stroking the ball firm from the center of the headstring on a 9-foot. The cue will push the cueball out just enough and the extreme spin will cause a slight masse effect so that in the end the cueball hits right where it needs to.

Supposedly the predator is a cue where you can put the huge siding on and aim right where you want the cueball to go. This disscussion on thinner and whippy shafts lessening the effects of siding on deflection and allowing the aim of a shot to be more "true" flows against the marketing of predator which is a thick and very stiff shaft and should therefore defelct the cueball alot when putting on alot of siding.
 
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