14.1 for 8-Ball practice.

Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I tried some 14.1 today, to see how it might benefit my 8-ball game.

btw: I struggled to maintain concentration in this game and found it tricky to choose smart patterns, but I started to get better after an hour or so.

I thought this game might help me with developing 8-ball patterns, but I actually think I'd be much better served just playing 8-ball and trying to lift my out percentage. In my solo session today I was probably shooting about 40% clearance from after the break shot.

I figure I will need to get this to around 80%. That's a pretty big gap to bridge, but I've just started serious practice and I'm still fishing for the angles (Aiming help DM?) which should improve very soon.

Anyway, when making 8-ball clearances (which really is the biggest part of 8-ball I believe), the patterns and kisses are quite different than in 14.1. The carom shots are usually quite different and with different goals.

I think my time would be better served by practicing and improving my 8-ball patterns. Order to take, when and how to kiss out the dead balls etc. The odds of success increase very significantly by choosing smarter routes. This is something 14.1 would give me only minimal assistance in.
 
Straight Pool

There is no better gauge than the game of straight pool. The luck factor is almost completely eliminated. When you have controlled an inning for 30 or more minutes run 60 70 or 80 balls and ended with a jam up safe, it makes you feel in total control of the table and the balls. I would keep it in your practice routine.

I am more of a nine ball player,perhaps considered a middle A player. Not long ago I had A wrist injury which prevented me from playing nine ball. After not playing for a week or so I couldnt take not playing anymore. I decided to set up a break shot and try to run some balls. For two weeks I played nothing but straight. I probably played about 2000 points worth of games. The very first nine ball set I played I opened with a 4 pack. Something I had not done in quite a while. Just a few thoughts, good luck in your game.

Dave
 
Colin, first off I hadnt had the chance to congratulate you on making the tour. Practice hard and get yourself ready, you have an opportunity many players would love to have.

Second, dont brush off straight pool too quickly. I know you are a player, so take this advice as you will. Straight pool can and will help your 8ball if you really study the game. There are some good books on the subject, and Accustat tapes with good commentary can really be an eye opener. My 8ball patters got MUCH better when I started trying to learn straight pool. Learning to read latter part of the racks backwards was a huge help. It punishes you for sloppy position play and makes you stay focused on every shot.

Im not saying dont practice 8ball, but you may want to look a little deeper into 14.1 before saying it wont help. The games and patterns are more similar than you may think.

Woody
 
Straight pool requires great imagination, frequent problem solving, and self-designed patterns, and the skills it develops translate well to eight ball.

Still, I feel you should be playing more eight ball than straight pool to prepare yourself for the IPT.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I tried some 14.1 today, to see how it might benefit my 8-ball game..
Click to expand...

You got it, Colin.

Although 14.1 can help with many aspects of the 8-ball game, there are too many nuances to 8-ball that require it's own special focus IMO. That is, the standard clearing of 14.1 to get things open is often contradictory to 8-ball. So, if you plan on clearing and opening the table in 8-ball like you would in straight pool, you might find yourself struggling to get things open more than you should be.

Fred
 
What I'd like to know is how will you adjust to slow nap and the 4.5 pockets? Do you have a table set with these specifications that you practice on? :confused:
 
Colin Colenso said:
I figure I will need to get this to around 80%. That's a pretty big gap to bridge, but I've just started serious practice and I'm still fishing for the angles (Aiming help DM?) which should improve very soon.
Click to expand...


Aiming might help. But the key to winning 8-ball seems to be that you want to knock in all of your balls first and then the 8 ball more frequently than your opponent. And especially don't knock in the 8 ball before your other balls are off the table.

Hope that helps...you know I'm there for you anytime. Just give a holler. ;)

Btw...REALLY focus on breaking the balls and making the right choice between the two groups immediately. If you aren't seeing the runout and problems between both ahead of time to make the correct choice...you'll probably blow it.
 
drivermaker said:
Aiming might help. But the key to winning 8-ball seems to be that you want to knock in all of your balls first and then the 8 ball more frequently than your opponent. And especially don't knock in the 8 ball before your other balls are off the table.

Hope that helps...you know I'm there for you anytime. Just give a holler. ;)

Btw...REALLY focus on breaking the balls and making the right choice between the two groups immediately. If you aren't seeing the runout and problems between both ahead of time to make the correct choice...you'll probably blow it.
Click to expand...

Ah...another refreshing post from DM on 8-ball. :D

Colin, being an old-time 8-baller, I've been practicing breaking from the IPT designated area as opposed to nearer the side rail. I've discovered that one can still do the "second-ball break" quite well so as to pot a ball and get what I call "safety shape" on the cueball. The cueball ends up near the foot rail, a really good place to be in 8-ball...really. :cool:

Break from the left side of the box, near the headstring. Use just a hair of left and low, 58% speed and the cueball barely hits the second ball, goes to the left rail, and then settles down near the foot rail. At this spot, a good player can pot a tough up-table ball, back-cut a tough shot, nail a combo., etc., or play safe right off the bat, even perhaps making your opponent chose the problem balls.

Try it for a while and see how you like it. I think this could be a nice advantage for you.

Jeff Livingston
 
Interesting thread Colin, funny I had a brief chat with Mr Barouty in corner Billiards in NYC a month ago about this. I mentioned that I thought 8 ball was the closest game to 14.1 (can't remember how we got on the topic but I think it was because he didn't like 8 ball, probably due to the IPT). I was a little suprised that he didn't think 8 ball was like 14.1 at all. I have to say I disagree and still think it's the closest game. Interestingly when I bought Capelles "play your best straight pool" on one of the early pages he writes:

"If you had to pick the one game that is closest to straight pool, it would be 8 ball. In both games, you have the freedom to play any of several balls in any pocket. In addition you must break clusters and play a pattern that ends with a shot on a specific ball. You must also be skilled at short-range position play."

I think you should break up your practice Colin between long straight pool sets for concentration, to measure your progree and to get you cuing going. And also play the 8 ball ghost until your thrashing him.

Good luck, Craig
 
Colin,
Using 14.1 for 8-ball practice is a good thing but I suggest you add this demention: Rack the 15 like 8ball, pull the break ball, open the stack with your set of balls being the breakball you pocket, and now try getting out playing by the rules of 8-ball. In the process of running your set of balls try and create problems for the other set of balls. If you run your first set, spot the 8ball and continue to run the other set of balls. This way you are practicing all the attributes of fine 8ball play; the ability to get out from tight clusters and the abitlity to get out from open/unclustered table layouts...If you can't runout with the first set and decide to duck you will be practicing good saftey/good straegy 8ball while you finish off the balls...the only way you can get over a 15 ball run is to run both sets as described above, keep track of your high run if you can get to 30 and above your a jam up 8ball player. After practicing this way for a time all normal 8ball games will seem like wide open tables with minor problems to solve...

Give it a try, it's pretty tough duty...

Congradulations on being selected for the bigtime...good luck to you.
 
I've only been playing Straight Pool again the last six weeks ago, and I was able to win a Tri-State 8-ball tournament going undefeated and never losing more than four racks a match (race to 7) last weekend. I could definitely see the patterns better after studying and playing Straight. In fact, my pattern play has definitely improved in Straight Pool too. Also, I had the strategy to beat the 9-ball players at 8-ball. 8-ball on 9ft tables has always been my strongest game. I've won 7 of my last 10 tournaments at 8-ball making about $3k, but I've yet to win a 9-ball tournament in about 15-20 attempts.

I remember reading on another thread that 8-ball strategy would be useless at the pro level in the IPT. I recall it being said that is becomes a pure run-out game at that level. If that is true, then keep practicing Straight, and definitely the 8-ball ghost. If that is not completely true, definitely read up on the strategy of 8-ball.
 
woody_968 said:
Colin, first off I hadnt had the chance to congratulate you on making the tour. Practice hard and get yourself ready, you have an opportunity many players would love to have.

Second, dont brush off straight pool too quickly. I know you are a player, so take this advice as you will. Straight pool can and will help your 8ball if you really study the game. There are some good books on the subject, and Accustat tapes with good commentary can really be an eye opener. My 8ball patters got MUCH better when I started trying to learn straight pool. Learning to read latter part of the racks backwards was a huge help. It punishes you for sloppy position play and makes you stay focused on every shot.

Im not saying dont practice 8ball, but you may want to look a little deeper into 14.1 before saying it wont help. The games and patterns are more similar than you may think.

Woody
Click to expand...
Thanks Woody,
I won't brush off 14.1. I'm sure there are a lot of aspects to it that will add value to my game.

I just wanted to get some feedback...and I got some great feedback after thrying it out and thinking about 14.1's relevance in a training routine at this time. I was looking to do maybe 30% of my time on 14.1 but now will change to 10% or less, at least until my 8-ball picks up.

It's a bit like the 80-20 rule. 14.1 will give me improvements in the 20 percent of the game, but pure 8-ball practice gains will have an effect on the 80 percent part. Much bigger returns at this stage.

btw: Thanks for everyone's imput. I'm gonna try to get to them one by one if time permits. :D
 
sjm said:
Straight pool requires great imagination, frequent problem solving, and self-designed patterns, and the skills it develops translate well to eight ball.

Still, I feel you should be playing more eight ball than straight pool to prepare yourself for the IPT.
Click to expand...

sjm,
I agree with you re the imagination. I can see where 14.1 will help a lot with play inside clusters.

But I find clusters are not a big problem on the 9' table, maybe every 5 games or so and when they occur they are usually around the rails moreso than the pack area. I played mainly on 7' tables learning the game and there was so much cluster play, I feel I am pretty good with working these with combinations, caroms, kiss outs, safeties and masses on occassion.
 
shoutout33 said:
What I'd like to know is how will you adjust to slow nap and the 4.5 pockets? Do you have a table set with these specifications that you practice on? :confused:
Click to expand...
I won't know how slow the nap is until I actually see it at the King of the Hill in Orlando next month. From what I could tell from the video on the IPT website it doesn't look too slow.

There is a shot by LLJ where you can see the CB spinning before it catches. This looks as quick or quicker than the nap I am on.

Also, the pockets I'm on are pretty tight, two balls fit side by side tight. Also the cloth is pretty grippy around the jaws so I wouldn't be surprised if new cloth 4.5" pockets at the IPT play larger.
 
Cornerman said:
You got it, Colin.

Although 14.1 can help with many aspects of the 8-ball game, there are too many nuances to 8-ball that require it's own special focus IMO. That is, the standard clearing of 14.1 to get things open is often contradictory to 8-ball. So, if you plan on clearing and opening the table in 8-ball like you would in straight pool, you might find yourself struggling to get things open more than you should be.

Fred
Click to expand...
That is basically what I found. Some of what I was doing was counter-intuitive to how I would go about it in 8-ball.

Still, I really don't know what I'm doing in 14.1. I was just copying what I saw on The One's video. I got the idea from discussions here that I should peel them off more strategically, rather than smash the pack up.

There's some good stuff to it, but just not specific enough for what I need right now. I have trained for many tournaments before and I feel I know how to get myself primed to my premium game. This time, I have to reach a new higher premium. I'm not likely to get many easy games to warm up, if any.
 
drivermaker said:
Aiming might help. But the key to winning 8-ball seems to be that you want to knock in all of your balls first and then the 8 ball more frequently than your opponent. And especially don't knock in the 8 ball before your other balls are off the table.
Click to expand...
Ok, written that down, what's next? :rolleyes:

Hope that helps...you know I'm there for you anytime. Just give a holler. ;)

Btw...REALLY focus on breaking the balls and making the right choice between the two groups immedimately. If you aren't seeing the runout and problems between both ahead of time to make the correct choice...you'll probably blow it.
Click to expand...
This is also what I think. I'm working on my break and studying the choice and runout sequences. This makes so much of a difference. There are probably 50 different sequence options for either set of balls. Quickly assessing the best probably path, that has options further along in case shape is missed, and considering paths that may keep you in the game by blocking opponent's balls takes a lot of mental training.

Most the 8-ball I've been playing the last couple of years has been in the bar, where most guys can't run 3 fookin' balls. I often take the difficult balls to even things up, or choose patterns that are more challenging so the games last a bit longer. I have to re-program my brain a bit.
 
chefjeff said:
Ah...another refreshing post from DM on 8-ball. :D

Colin, being an old-time 8-baller, I've been practicing breaking from the IPT designated area as opposed to nearer the side rail. I've discovered that one can still do the "second-ball break" quite well so as to pot a ball and get what I call "safety shape" on the cueball. The cueball ends up near the foot rail, a really good place to be in 8-ball...really. :cool:

Break from the left side of the box, near the headstring. Use just a hair of left and low, 58% speed and the cueball barely hits the second ball, goes to the left rail, and then settles down near the foot rail. At this spot, a good player can pot a tough up-table ball, back-cut a tough shot, nail a combo., etc., or play safe right off the bat, even perhaps making your opponent chose the problem balls.

Try it for a while and see how you like it. I think this could be a nice advantage for you.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...
Hi Jeff,
I've been working on the straight on power break. Been getting good spreads and a ball about 70-80% of breaks. I do think I can develop a good accurate power break. You may know I was a shot putter / decathlete so I've got some strength and speed, I just need to work on the timing / technique a bit.

I've tried the break you mentioned and I think I'll experiment more with it. It's worth having a second card up the sleeve in case the power breaks stop working as they can do on occassion for some reason I don't yet know.
 
TheOne said:
Interesting thread Colin, funny I had a brief chat with Mr Barouty in corner Billiards in NYC a month ago about this. I mentioned that I thought 8 ball was the closest game to 14.1 (can't remember how we got on the topic but I think it was because he didn't like 8 ball, probably due to the IPT). I was a little suprised that he didn't think 8 ball was like 14.1 at all. I have to say I disagree and still think it's the closest game. Interestingly when I bought Capelles "play your best straight pool" on one of the early pages he writes:

"If you had to pick the one game that is closest to straight pool, it would be 8 ball. In both games, you have the freedom to play any of several balls in any pocket. In addition you must break clusters and play a pattern that ends with a shot on a specific ball. You must also be skilled at short-range position play."

I think you should break up your practice Colin between long straight pool sets for concentration, to measure your progree and to get you cuing going. And also play the 8 ball ghost until your thrashing him.

Good luck, Craig
Click to expand...

Hi Craig,
I think you're right that 14.1 is closer to 8-ball than is 9-ball and snooker and carom. I expect good 14.1 player would convert more quickly to 8-ball than a pure 9-ball player. I've seen a lot of very good snooker (specialist) player's try 8-ball, and they bury themselves (dig a hole / run out of options to go out) nearly every time.

You may have a point about the 14.1 for concentration. I will continue to play it a bit, maybe adapt it to some degree to make it more specific.

Give me some idea of what you think constitutes various pro-levels for 8-ball against the ghost.

My guess would be that the average IPT player will be about 50% of their break (5/5 ghost). The best maybe 70-80% throughout the tourney.

So aiming to beat the ghost on average about 11-5 would put someone in contention? Any one else have an opinion on this?

I reckon, right now I would lose about 6-11 on average. But I've just started getting serious and still messing around with alignment and stuff. I expect 11-11 is realistic in a few weeks. Hard to know what is possible for me beyond that. Hard work will tell.

I'll play a few ghost challenges and monitor my improvement over the days and weeks.

Cheers,
Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
Still, I really don't know what I'm doing in 14.1. I was just copying what I saw on The One's video. I got the idea from discussions here that I should peel them off more strategically, rather than smash the pack up.
Click to expand...

I thought that as well. But Steve goes by the smash the pack up approach, and if he does, that's good enough for me. If I am hitting the bottom of the third ball, or the 4th ball on the side of the rack shot, after Steve showed me, I now find smashing with top not only opens them up for easy pickings, but when the top acts on the cue ball coming off the back rail, it holds it very nicely. Plus playing with top at power is much easier and more accurate than playing with bottom at power. However, if I'm hitting the top three balls, I still do the medium power shot with draw to bring the cue ball to the center of the table unless I'm hitting the ball head on when I may have to hit it a little harder to get out of the pack. Even on this shot, Steve said you can power draw off the top rail back to the center of the table. I'm still learning the break shot and what works for me.

But this is an 8-ball thread, not Straight ...
 
cheesemouse said:
Colin,
Using 14.1 for 8-ball practice is a good thing but I suggest you add this demention: Rack the 15 like 8ball, pull the break ball, open the stack with your set of balls being the breakball you pocket, and now try getting out playing by the rules of 8-ball. In the process of running your set of balls try and create problems for the other set of balls. If you run your first set, spot the 8ball and continue to run the other set of balls. This way you are practicing all the attributes of fine 8ball play; the ability to get out from tight clusters and the abitlity to get out from open/unclustered table layouts...If you can't runout with the first set and decide to duck you will be practicing good saftey/good straegy 8ball while you finish off the balls...the only way you can get over a 15 ball run is to run both sets as described above, keep track of your high run if you can get to 30 and above your a jam up 8ball player. After practicing this way for a time all normal 8ball games will seem like wide open tables with minor problems to solve...

Give it a try, it's pretty tough duty...

Congradulations on being selected for the bigtime...good luck to you.
Click to expand...
Hi Cheesemouse,
This sounds close to how I practice most the time.

I just break as normal though and try to go out. I play against myself trying to go out and knock the other balls safe when appropriate. When I clear to the black, I reset it on the spot and try to go out on the other balls. I think this part of the drill is useful, because we often have to finish from a near open table and it's important to pick the best pattern. It is quite different from the patterns for clearing when all the balls are on the table.

I guess I've completed full racks without missing 4 or 5 times in a row I guess (60+ balls), never really counted but I used to run 3 packs about every session (4-6 hours) this way. Done on an english pool table (which I consider to be tougher).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top