14.1 ruling, please

9BallPaul

Banned
Playing straight pool with my nephew, he potted the ball as called in the corner pocket, but it contained about six other balls. The called ball climbed out of the pocket and came to rest atop the rail, balanced between the felt and the hardwood.

Does the ball count as called, and play continue as though it stayed potted?

Or does the ball spot and the inning end?

Thanks.
 
Deduct 5 points for playing straight pool on a table without a ball return! :slap:
 
Playing straight pool with my nephew, he potted the ball as called in the corner pocket, but it contained about six other balls. The called ball climbed out of the pocket and came to rest atop the rail, balanced between the felt and the hardwood.

Does the ball count as called, and play continue as though it stayed potted?

Or does the ball spot and the inning end?

Thanks.

It does not count as a potted ball as it's the shooter's responsibility to make sure that the pockets are cleared.

Since the ball remained off of the playing surface, the shot is counted as a foul and the ball spotted.
 
Deduct 5 points for playing straight pool on a table without a ball return! :slap:

Yeah, it always amazes me when I see tournaments where the players walk around clearing balls out of pockets. Drop pockets should have been buried with Mingaud.
 
Brian is right. It would be the referee's responsibility to do this normally as it is stated in the rules. Playing without a referee it is the shooter's responsibility. See rules below. WPA rules.

8.3 Ball Pocketed
A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system. A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.
If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken. An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball. If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not. The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter’s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.
 
Brian is right. It would be the referee's responsibility to do this normally as it is stated in the rules. Playing without a referee it is the shooter's responsibility. See rules below. WPA rules.

8.3 Ball Pocketed
A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system. A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.
If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken. An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball. If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not. The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter’s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.

Well, to be precise, if a match has a referee, clearing the pockets is one of the referee's duties but the responsibility lies on the shooter. If a ball bounces out of the pocket full of balls, it still doesn't count as pocketed even with a referee present. The very first rule in WPA rules is "player responsibility".

Otherwise you and Brian are right. :thumbup:
 
Thanks

Looks like we've got an answer. Too bad for my nephew, but it's all part of his pool education. Thanks for the answers guys.
 
"Drop pockets" have their place

Yeah, it always amazes me when I see tournaments where the players walk around clearing balls out of pockets. Drop pockets should have been buried with Mingaud.

Not to sidetrack or commandeer this thread, but in response to the bolded comment above, I say, "for straight pool and rotation games, perhaps." However, for "target pocket" games like One Pocket and Golf, drop pockets actually make these games easier to track what ball / what hole. And, drop pockets are easily-maintained and simple -- not much can go wrong with a simple bucket or leather net. A ball return system needs periodic maintenance, and I've often encountered defective ball return systems in establishments that otherwise have well-maintained / nice-playing tables (e.g. a ball "hangs up" on the steel rebar raceways and stays inside the table, necessitating going underneath the table and freeing the ball up, or a pocketed ball bouncing off these steel rebars and onto the floor[!]).

Plus, although I'm not one of them and I personally don't subscribe to this theory, there *are* those people out there that believe tables with simple drop pockets have had all their design attention and workmanship paid to the playability of the table, while a ball-return-system-based table has had some of that design and workmanship attention "diverted" away from playability and redirected into the design of the ball-return system itself. (Again, I personally don't subscribe to this theory, as tables are designed by a pool of people, each area/facet of the table worked on by people with certain focused skillsets and expertise, in assembly line or "cell" fashion.)

Anyways, I just wanted to share some possible reasons why drop pockets are still around. I hope this is helpful/insightful info!

-Sean
 
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Anyways, I just wanted to share some possible reasons why drop pockets are still around. I hope this is helpful/insightful info!
Sean

It's more a question of money. Ball returns cost more. Everybody wants to cut costs and don't want to pay more for ball returns. To me, problems with returns are acceptable for the ease and speed of reracking the balls. Golf really makes no difference to me but I disagree on the One Pocket. Having to pull balls out of a pocket breaks my rhythm. For some reason, I've seen fewer tables with ball returns in the South than I ever did in NYS. I've seen way more places that cut way more corners than any place I played in the NE.
 
I must be weird, I always preferred drop pockets. Every single table with a return system that I've played on will have some hassle or issue that sometimes prevents all the balls from getting there, and I don't like having to stoop getting them out. I know that makes little sense given that we're all stooping to shoot but I still don't like it. Having a ball get spat out happens about 1 in 200 games and that's only when I fail to notice the pocket's pretty full.
 
'Tis what you're used to

It's more a question of money. Ball returns cost more. Everybody wants to cut costs and don't want to pay more for ball returns. To me, problems with returns are acceptable for the ease and speed of reracking the balls. Golf really makes no difference to me but I disagree on the One Pocket. Having to pull balls out of a pocket breaks my rhythm. For some reason, I've seen fewer tables with ball returns in the South than I ever did in NYS. I've seen way more places that cut way more corners than any place I played in the NE.

Pushout, thanks for the follow-up reply and your viewpoints. I guess this is a question of perception. You nailed it on the head when you mentioned about way less ball-return-system-based tables in the South vs. the North. I'm a native NY'er that spent 8 years in the U.S. Navy, stationed aboard ships home-ported in the South (e.g. Norfolk, VA), so I know what you're talking about and can personally attest to it.

As for having to break one's rhythm by pulling balls out of a pocket in games like One Pocket and Straight Pool, I'd grown accustomed to it by spending oodles of time on drop-pocket-based tables, I don't even think about it -- while still looking at the table/shot, I just walk over and pull the balls out, and then go back to the shot. For me, it actually FORCES me to look at the table/pattern from a different angle. Very often, I make slight changes in my pattern or shot selection based on something I "saw" from the different angle while pulling balls out of the pocket, that I would not have seen if I'd just stayed in position for the next shot that I'd originally had in mind just prior to pocketing that last ball. Just goes to show it's a perception / what-you're-used-to thing. I *do* like the One Pocket option for the Diamond tables, though, where there's two separate cubbyholes in the ball return tray, corresponding to the two target pockets in One Pocket.

Anyway, back on topic with this thread, folks who've become used to drop-pocket tables (in locations that chose to cut costs by choosing drop-pocket tables to begin with, as you pointed out) are generally in the habit of emptying pockets, because they'd been burned with the "shooter's pocket-emptying responsibility" clause in the rules. What's really funny to watch is someone like myself, who, while walking around to the next shot on a ball-return-based table, will habitually (without looking down) put his hand in the pockets to empty any balls, only to suddenly realize when his fingers encounter the steel rebar raceway, "hey numskull, this is a ball-return-table!" :o My opponent and I both get a laugh -- myself for looking up at my opponent's crinkled eyebrows, "what in the world are you doing?" facial expression, and then my opponent after he/she sees my embarrassment when I realize it's a ball-return-based table. :D

-Sean
 
Conversely, when racking I've reached down to grab balls out of the return tray only to scrape my knuckles against the table skirt or ball shelf. There is no tray as the table does NOT have a ball return.
 
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My Take

Yeah, I had ignored the comments about drop pockets because getting another table isn't really an option for me. Plus, I've never played on a ball-return system that I liked. I grew up playing on drop pockets and they've served me just fine for 40-plus years.

Apparently they were good enough for Mosconi, etc., (Willie ran his 526 on an 8-footer with drop pockets) so I think I can get along with them too.

You'd never know it from reading this board, but there are other table makers out there besides Diamond. Some of them play pretty darn well, too.
 
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