1990 US Open Sigel & Varner - 5 Inch Pockets

[sudocrushms]

Valleys are actually under 5", I never measured but I would guess about 4 3/4", they just seem big because they have short shelf. A Gold Crown of that era was typically over 5", usually about 5 1/8".

The GC3-4s at Shooter's in MSP are 5.5" corners (with 5(?) exceptions, plus the 2 Diamonds). Those pockets are HUGE. At least until you hit the edge of the plastic pocket insert and it spits the ball back at you...

 

[BasementDweller]

I agree but I just love watching Keith play. When he's in a gear it's a joy to watch. He's a legit comedian at times too.

Tournament style pool was still somewhat in it's infancy. Slow cloth, little tech, no commonly and readily available instruction like today. It was the wild west. They were the best then and had a champion mindset. Had they grew up in an era similar to today I feel they would still have the champion mindset and some could still compete, especially if they embraced the tech/conditions/info available now.

These guys were the wild west gunslingers. Real scrappers. Nowadays we have Olympic style marksmen, with the tech and knowledge base to go with it. They are standing on the shoulders of giants.

You will notice comparatively wonky strokes, bad form, but these guys would still destroy all of the guys at your local pool hall. Pool wasn't as refined back then but honestly it gives it a lot of charm. I learn more for my own game watching these guys or actually semi pros than watching the pros on perfect conditions. Most places I play have shit conditions, except for my own basement. You have to play differently "out in the wild" if you have good conditions at home. Slow/dirty cloth and rails, unmitigated humidity, dirty and worn balls, non level tables, poor lighting, etc. If you watched this match to the interview at the end, Keith talked about how damp the table was, and that in and of itself can account for a lot of the misses made by both players.

All in all, it was an enjoyable match to watch.

Good post.

I do agree that the tourney vs gambling mindset has a lot to do with the poor tourney play we see in many of the old matches. Most of these guys were just accustomed to playing with a certain type of freedom, while today's players don't have this luxury. What's funny is the narrative is exactly the opposite. It goes something like this -- "You don't know what pressure is like, until you find yourself in a bad area, while playing for a hundred bucks with nothin' but lent in your pockets." I think the seasoned gamblers of yesteryear didn't even fear going bust. Life was simpler and cheaper. They would just start again from scratch. I think the narrative has been quite misleading.

Modern day tourney pressure is intense and it drives players towards greatness more than action does. Although action does keep the scenery interesting along the drive.

 

[RidgeRaider]

But how do you not love that place with all those Gold Crowns. Its an hour drive for me and I have a Gold Crown in my basement but there's just something about all those GC's under 1 roof that draws me there.

Absolutely, I love the place. Don't forget the 10ft table too!

 

[maha]

pockets were certainly bigger but the rest of the tables and conditions were far worse and tougher to play on.
and bigger meant wider at the mouth not inside so many tables still spit out balls if hit badly especially gold crowns.

don't gage the level of todays play by those playing on brand new cloth, air conditioned space and polished balls that dont need a hard stroke.

no question the very top players in all sports today train hard and get there. where back then it wasn't so easy as most had day jobs or just played for a living every day.

but ive never seen more than a few that can now grab a stick of the wall and run a hundred. it wasn't uncommon to see someone in every poolroom that could easily do it.

the top players now are better than the top players back then. but the general pool population isn't even close in ability.

 

[Cornerman]

I don't think anybody can win that many titles in today's game. It's just too hard for the elites to separate themselves. But would he be among the elite in today's game? I didn't use to think so, but I think I was wrong.

I think anyone who dominated their era has the mentality and personality to dominate any era. If the era back then were Diamond tables with 4 1/2" or less pockets, Sigel would have also been the biggest title leader. Until Joshua Filler, I really didn't think anyone was better than Sigel in his prime.

There was a tournament called the Peter Vitalie Open around 1986. @jay helfert was the director. There is a video somewhere, and pieces of it was used in Bob Byrne's standard video on pool. Pros talked about that tournament that it was near impossible to run a ball down the rail. The pockets were unfairly tight and brutal.

Sigel won.

 

[BasementDweller]

I think anyone who dominated their era has the mentality and personality to dominate any era. If the era back then were Diamond tables with 4 1/2" or less pockets, Sigel would have also been the biggest title leader. Until Joshua Filler, I really didn't think anyone was better than Sigel in his prime.

There was a tournament called the Peter Vitalie Open around 1986. @jay helfert was the director. There is a video somewhere, and pieces of it was used in Bob Byrne's standard video on pool. Pros talked about that tournament that it was near impossible to run a ball down the rail. The pockets were unfairly tight and brutal.

Sigel won.

I know you love Sigel but I think it's pretty clear pool is an international game now, and there are a lot more great players that the tops dogs have to content with. I just don't think it's possible for anyone to really dominant 9 ball pool because of this. Now would Sigel be among the top rated Fargo players? Maybe so.

Even now, you think Filler is better than Sigel, but he's not dominating in the same fashion as Sigel did. The days of the top players getting to club baby seals for half of their tournament victories is behind us.

 

[Cornerman]

I know you love Sigel but I think it's pretty clear pool is an international game now, and there are a lot more great players that the tops dogs have to content with. I just don't think it's possible for anyone to really dominant 9 ball pool because of this. Now would Sigel be among the top rated Fargo players? Maybe so.

Even now, you think Filler is better than Sigel, but he's not dominating in the same fashion as Sigel did. The days of the top players getting to club baby seals for half of their tournament victories is behind us.

I know Sigel, but he was never my favorite player. Varner and Efren were. But Sigel kept winning. As I said, if Diamond had been the standard table in his era, he still would have had as many titles. It would be illogical for anyone to think otherwise. If he magically transported today, he’d have to change his game to be a top tier player, but if he had the mental fortitude to be great in his era, you would think he also would have the mental fortitude to be the best in any era. That’s what makes generational players what they proved to be in their era.