2 rail kick(short rail first contact)

supergreenman

supergreenman

truly addicted
Silver Member
Ok, I was reading about this system that you use for 2 rail kicks that you can use for shots that are within 2 diamonds of the foot rail. I guess I'd better use an illustration to describe this.

CueTable Help



So, you're trying to hit the 8 ball. The idea is that you pick a spot on the wall 6-9 feet away from the table by running a line through the 8 ball and the the corner pocket. Then using high top spin and a hard shot aiming at the point on the wall you should be able to hit the 8 going 2 rails.

I haven't had any luck with this, does anyone have some insight on this shot?

edit: the arrow from the CB was headed off in the wrong direction for some reason, but It's fixed now
 
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Edited because I think I was wrong.

There may be something to this, I'll give it a go tonight and report back.
 
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James,

You need to use "reverse" english. It's a firm stroke, hitting at "11:00" or "11:30" depending on your individual stroke (in your example). You have to hit the CB firm enough to have most of the spin on the CB when it hits the first rail.


Eric

supergreenman said:
Ok, I was reading about this system that you use for 2 rail kicks that you can use for shots that are within 2 diamonds of the foot rail. I guess I'd better use an illustration to describe this.

CueTable Help



So, you're trying to hit the 8 ball. The idea is that you pick a spot on the wall 6-9 feet away from the table by running a line through the 8 ball and the the corner pocket. Then using high top spin and a hard shot aiming at the point on the wall you should be able to hit the 8 going 2 rails.

I haven't had any luck with this, does anyone have some insight on this shot?

edit: the arrow from the CB was headed off in the wrong direction for some reason, but It's fixed now
Click to expand...
 
Eric. said:
James,

You need to use "reverse" english. It's a firm stroke, hitting at "11:00" or "11:30" depending on your individual stroke (in your example). You have to hit the CB firm enough to have most of the spin on the CB when it hits the first rail.


Eric
Click to expand...
I'm familiar with reverse english kicking systems, this system specifically stated extreme top was to be used for it to work.
 
supergreenman said:
I'm familiar with reverse english kicking systems, this system specifically stated extreme top was to be used for it to work.
Click to expand...

Since the angle off the second rail is shorter than a natural angle I too would say you need reverse english on the shot illustrated. Also, the example seems a perfect illustration of when the mirror method should be used. Find the mid point between the cb and ob. Make a line from that point to the heart of the corner pocket, then send the cue ball to the first rail on a path that parallels that line.
 
supergreenman said:
I'm familiar with reverse english kicking systems, this system specifically stated extreme top was to be used for it to work.
Click to expand...


I hear what you're saying, James. I was just making a suggestion on how to make it work. I don't think hitting at 12:00 is the way to go, unless the table is playing very short...


Eric
 
acedotcom said:
Since the angle off the second rail is shorter than a natural angle I too would say you need reverse english on the shot illustrated. Also, the example seems a perfect illustration of when the mirror method should be used. Find the mid point between the cb and ob. Make a line from that point to the heart of the corner pocket, then send the cue ball to the first rail on a path that parallels that line.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I know this system too, I was just messing around with this spot on the wall system trying to add another tool to my cue case.
 
supergreenman said:
Ok, I was reading about this system that you use for 2 rail kicks that you can use for shots that are within 2 diamonds of the foot rail. I guess I'd better use an illustration to describe this....
Click to expand...
This and similar systems assume that the line after two cushions is parallel to the line into the first cushion. That's usually a bad assumption. As noted you can fix the system with english, but you're better off with some other system, if possible. A systematic way to test two cushion kicks is in the July 2004 article in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html which uses a "double mirror" to place the reflected ideal target in the right place so you don't have to do any visualization.
 
Bob Jewett said:
This and similar systems assume that the line after two cushions is parallel to the line into the first cushion. That's usually a bad assumption. As noted you can fix the system with english, but you're better off with some other system, if possible. A systematic way to test two cushion kicks is in the July 2004 article in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html which uses a "double mirror" to place the reflected ideal target in the right place so you don't have to do any visualization.
Click to expand...

Bob have a look at the shot that DeadAim posted, the link in my previous reply. I believe this to be a different type of kick, a special case if you will. The DeadAim material has other 2 rail kicks, including the classics, but this one is different.

Dave
 
DaveK said:
Bob have a look at the shot that DeadAim posted, the link in my previous reply. I believe this to be a different type of kick, a special case if you will. The DeadAim material has other 2 rail kicks, including the classics, but this one is different.

Dave
Click to expand...
I've gone through about half of what DeadAim posted and most of it seems solid, it's just this one 2 rail system that has me stumped.
 
supergreenman said:
I'm familiar with reverse english kicking systems, this system specifically stated extreme top was to be used for it to work.
Click to expand...

Did anyone say why you should use extreme follow? I'm guessing that it's supposed to make the cb bend back toward the foot rail a little after contacting it, and thus shorten up the kick. If so, I would think that the running english you will pick up from the contact with the foot rail would negate any bend you might get by using extreme follow. I couldn't imagine getting the cb to bend very much from there anyway, though, because the entry angle is so shallow and the distance from there to the next rail is so short. You might want to try it without the 10 ball in the way to see if you can get enough follow with a level cue. I don't know, though, it looks like it needs a little inside spin to me, especially on a table with large pockets because the point will be more in the way.

Good luck!
 
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DaveK said:
Bob have a look at the shot that DeadAim posted, the link in my previous reply. I believe this to be a different type of kick, a special case if you will. The DeadAim material has other 2 rail kicks, including the classics, but this one is different.

Dave
Click to expand...
The line chosen in Diagram 1 of DA's system is close to the double-mirror system. At that angle, I think the line can only be achieved on normal cloth with reverse english. Further, I think that the "extremely hard" and "extremely high" parts of the shot make it less useful and very dependent on table conditions. (Does the cue ball jump off the first cushion? I think so.)

But I'll try to remember to try the shot tonight.
 
supergreenman said:
I've gone through about half of what DeadAim posted and most of it seems solid, it's just this one 2 rail system that has me stumped.
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I tried it, after deadaim posted it. It worked for me. You may need to adjust your spot on the wall. If you are missing it toward the side pocket, extend your aim point. Also make sure you are getting plenty of top spin. Just keep experimenting, it will work.

Tracy
 
RSB-Refugee said:
I tried it, after deadaim posted it. It worked for me. You may need to adjust your spot on the wall. If you are missing it toward the side pocket, extend your aim point. Also make sure you are getting plenty of top spin. Just keep experimenting, it will work.

Tracy
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Thanks Tracy, I take it you shot the shot as described with out extra english? The closest I've come is still a diamond away.
 
supergreenman said:
Thanks Tracy, I take it you shot the shot as described with out extra english? The closest I've come is still a diamond away.
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Unless the english was unintentional. :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure it was a center hit. Think more about a long follow through and less about hitting it hard. Just keep trying, I'm sure you will get it. By the way, did you know, deadaim is Jim Rempe? So I'm sure he knows a little. ;)

Tracy
 
RSB-Refugee said:
Unless the english was unintentional. :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure it was a center hit. Think more about a long follow through and less about hitting it hard. Just keep trying, I'm sure you will get it. By the way, did you know, deadaim is Jim Rempe? So I'm sure he knows a little. ;)

Tracy
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Wow, ok, with that in mind I'll be headed to the hall tonight to try that again with a little more enthusiasm.

I'll let you all know what I come up with.
 
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