29" shaft on 30" butt; been done before....?

tjlmbklr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Forgive me for going over kill on this subject, but I spent a lot of money already and want to do everything right this time. I upgraded about 2 yrs ago to 60" cue because of a long set of arms and reach. It feels great, balance is spot on, but I feel there is parts of my game that I am having trouble blaming just myself. I want to try out a OB-1 and I know it's got rave reviews in these parts. But my cue is a 30/30" split. lenght may feel good, but this does mean that is prone to higher deflection ratings. I have heard time and time again about 30" shaft will have higher deflection then a 29". So I am loosley considering putting a 29" shaft on a 30" butt. How much less weight do you think it'll be, and will my balance be greatly effected. I heard the other way around, 30" shaft on 29" butt, has anyone ever done it the other way?
 
I would pay no heed to those who say a 30" shaft will have more deflection than a 29" shaft. I have a 30" ob-1 shaft on my cue now and I feel it plays great. You should have no problem keeping your cue at 60" with the ob-1. Just have your cuemaker (or Royce Bunnel) keep the shaft length at 30" (because that is how the blank comes) before doing the ringwork.
 
I have several predator 314 shafts, and z shafts of both the 29" and 30" lengths. The hit on the 30" is slightly different, but IMO the 30" seems to deflect less. I would stick with the 30/30 personaly, but if you want to put a 29" shaft on a 30" butt, it won't make much difference in the overall balance.
 
Thanks for the replys. I am still a little concerned after reading this article that I stickyed below.

By Bob HenningMaybe It's the Shaft!
This is my third column exploring the impact of the cue stick on
performance. When I first started this series, I thought it
would be a simple subject, maybe worthy of two columns at best. Mostly I wanted to see if switching to a 60-inch cue
after playing with a 58-inch Joss for 15 years would help me play better. I'd often wondered if my long limbs and height
would benefit from such a switch and wanted to settle the question once
and for all.
I have since come to realize several things. Without question, my body requires a longer cue. I wish I had started with
one
all those years ago. If I accidentally pick up a standard-sized cue today and go to put my gripping hand on
the butt,
there is nothing there-just air. In other words, I have been cramped up and restricted for 15 years. It is so obvious to me
now that it reminds me of the tiger cages made famous during the Vietnam War. No room to stand up, no room to lie
down, no room to stretch.
I have never been what is often referred to as an "equipment junkie" and have even admired the ability of some players
to play jam-up with a cue off the rack. Now I realize I was, and largely remain, ignorant of the nuances of the cue stick
and the effect on
advanced play. I've heard all the usual conversations about deflection and joint types, of course, but
have appreciated them mostly from a marketing sense. I have experimented with different tips but only
until I found one
I liked, and even then I stayed with the same cue and the same shaft.
Which brings me to my number one
insight-the importance of the shaft. The flexibility and taper of a shaft can greatly
affect the way a cue plays, and it makes sense to pick a shaft that enhances the way you play. Previous to this insight, I
was content in knowing that the "pro taper" my cue was built with was used by most of the top players. I didn't know that
the term was so widely used and the effect on
the cue so varied. Now I understand that part of the struggle in getting
used to my new 60-inch Dennis Dieckman cue is due to the shaft.
Dieckman believes in a stiff shaft with a gradual taper from the front going back and substantial thickness prior to the
joint. He believes it reduces deflection and allows the cue to hit truer. I agree with the latter, but I'm not so sure of the
former. I have no problem with deflection in normal, close-to-center cueing, but I've missed a lot of shots where I've had
to put a lot of juice on
the cue. Actually, it seems to me that the graduation in deflection from a little bit of english to
maximum english is more pronounced. How much of that is from the length of the cue or other factors, I don't know.
But there is one
thing about shafts of which I am now convinced. It is harder to put english, and especially draw, on
the
ball with a stiffer shaft. Dieckman, when I mentioned it to him, insisted that it was a result of my technique, even though I
had no problem drawing the cue ball with my Joss. Well, I thought, maybe it has to do with the extra length and the
resultant shift in timing and balance.
So I checked with several other sources. Tony Simpson, a Schuler Cue representative, maintains that a more flexible
shaft allows the cue tip to stay in contact, or "cling," to the surface of the cue ball longer, hence imparting more spin. I
was relieved to hear that Ray Schuler, the founder of Schuler Cues, was also an advocate of a stiffer shaft and amazed
that the company has ten different shaft tapers available in their retail line and about 150 others available for custom
work. I never realized that players could be so particular about their shafts.
I talked with Buddy Hall down at the U.S. Open and looked at a custom shaft that Nat Green of South East Cues had
made for him. Instead of a normal 14-inch pro taper, it came a full 16 inches back from the tip without any increasing
taper. Buddy slid it through his bridge hand to demonstrate how the unvarying dimension of the shaft allowed his bridge
to remain constant. We took it into the practice room and hit a few balls. When I pulled the cue ball back to the rail with
english, the shaft flexed like crazy, but just a touch of juice sent the ball completely down table.
Since then, as I've adjusted to my new cue, I've been able to jazz the white ball up with more and more confidence. I
appreciate the finesse of a more flexible shaft, but I like the authority of the stiffer shaft. In the least, I am willing to
experiment further. So was it the shaft? Was it the length? Or was it the technique? Turns out, it's a combination of the
three. Good luck & good shootin'!
 
Shaft characteristics and the tip quality are too often ignored. I wonder how Earl played so well with a Cuetec for all those years. I can't shoot with those POS's
 
tjlmbklr said:
Forgive me for going over kill on this subject, but I spent a lot of money already and want to do everything right this time. I upgraded about 2 yrs ago to 60" cue because of a long set of arms and reach. It feels great, balance is spot on, but I feel there is parts of my game that I am having trouble blaming just myself. I want to try out a OB-1 and I know it's got rave reviews in these parts. But my cue is a 30/30" split. lenght may feel good, but this does mean that is prone to higher deflection ratings. I have heard time and time again about 30" shaft will have higher deflection then a 29". So I am loosley considering putting a 29" shaft on a 30" butt. How much less weight do you think it'll be, and will my balance be greatly effected. I heard the other way around, 30" shaft on 29" butt, has anyone ever done it the other way?

I have custom built several cues with 30" butt and 29" shaft. Regarding your balance point you are making the assumption that a 29" shaft will be lighter than your 30" shaft --- that may not be the case. 30" shaft wood doesn't all weigh the same - some are heavier than others - so it is entirely possible that a heavy 29" shaft could be near the same weight as a light 30" shaft. You might ask the supplier of the OB-1 what the weight of the shaft is and then weigh your 30" shaft. This will let you know what change you will have in your balance.
 
Jack Madden said:
I have custom built several cues with 30" butt and 29" shaft. Regarding your balance point you are making the assumption that a 29" shaft will be lighter than your 30" shaft --- that may not be the case. 30" shaft wood doesn't all weigh the same - some are heavier than others - so it is entirely possible that a heavy 29" shaft could be near the same weight as a light 30" shaft. You might ask the supplier of the OB-1 what the weight of the shaft is and then weigh your 30" shaft. This will let you know what change you will have in your balance.

Great post Jack!!!!!!! TAP!!!!!! TAP!!!!!! TAP!!!!!!!
 
Yokel said:
Hehe, I thought this question was already posted once? ;)


In so any words is was. But when I ask a multiple part question, I never get all the answers I need, therefore I started a new thread.
 
additional observations on cue length and deflection

Great Posts All...

tjlmbklr...I'm curious...how tall are you? I would really like to know the distance is between your elbows when your arms are fully extended but I acknowledge that is a lot to ask. I have been playing with a formula for cue length.

I am interested to see if your comments and responses will bring the deflection gurus out for a little sport at someone's expense.

At the end of the day "deflection" is a consistently variable argument. This might be better said -- you will always have to make adjustments and estimate the effect of the dynamic forces at play in every game of pool...regardless of the deflection 'rating' of the shaft you play...the total effect of the dynamic element elimination is, at best, dubious because you are only reducing the amount of judgment required to achieve pocket/position play at any level.

I agree with Mr. Henning that the real issue is getting a cue you like and learning to play with it. This is not as easy as one might think…lots of people give up on a cue before they have time to actually master it. One of the best features of buying custom is the implied value of building/tuning the cue to the player. This is difficult overestimate if the player actually knows what he wants/needs.

Something I might have expected to hear would have been the difference in structure/stiffness/density (I heard the weight argument) between shafts. In the old days (I love to begin like this) the players looked for the darker heavier maple than today’s preferred vacuumed dried ultra-white (possibly bleached) maple shafts. I believe I can safely claim that I can provide a stiffer 32” shaft (with similar taper/dimensions) in darker maple than can likely be achieved in a 29” white. I would suggest that we measure the stiffness by cantilevering the shafts out to the same moments and comparing the amount of bending.

I think the needs of a player change so there may not be a silver bullet answer for the perfect cue. Stick with what you have long enough to master it (each cue will teach you something), consider what you would like to be different on you next cue…maybe you will take up one-pocket…maybe you will decide to change your stance…maybe you will decide to spin your ball less…maybe you will realize that a 6’ man and a 5’2” girl will not likely need the same equipment to perform to their peak ability.

Just my opinion…you be the judge

Andy Bruce
 
On the topic of height, I'm around 5' 8" or 5' 9", and will often notice an extra 2 or 3 inches hanging off the end of the cue as opposed to other, taller players taking the same shot.

When you have an extra 2-3 inches from your bridge hand to your target, it gives alot more room for error... as does the length in your stroke technique.

Often I find myself with an extra couple of inches in the back, or an extra couple of inches in the front... with myself having to choose between a longer distance from bridge hand to CB, or extra weight hanging off the back that I have to make adjustments for.

I am by no means an expert on the inticacies of billiards, but I know as a short player, sometimes inches matter :(
 
It's not so much my height as my reach. I wasn't sure because I did this once before I determined I needed to upgrade the lenght of my cue. So here it is. 76 3/4" finger tip to finger tip. Not bad considering I am less then 6' tall; 5' 11 1/2" to be exact. When I was playing with a standard 58" cue I was gripping so my hand was right on the end on the cue, and my bridge was something like 8" address. Keeping in mind I was at 90 degrees on the elbow at contact with the CB.

So what does this tell you?
 
tjlmbklr said:
It's not so much my height as my reach. I wasn't sure because I did this once before I determined I needed to upgrade the lenght of my cue. So here it is. 76 3/4" finger tip to finger tip. Not bad considering I am less then 6' tall; 5' 11 1/2" to be exact. When I was playing with a standard 58" cue I was gripping so my hand was right on the end on the cue, and my bridge was something like 8" address. Keeping in mind I was at 90 degrees on the elbow at contact with the CB.

So what does this tell you?

Since you seem to have already measured yourself and have the tape measure ready, try this... :)

Measure from your grip at the 90 degree angle to your most comfortable bridge, and add 8" to the cue, and go up and down from there. 8" gives you 4" on the ass end and 4" on the tip from your bridge to accomodate for a longer shot if need be. Most halls have cues of varying length, so it shouldnt be hard to test out.

If you need a longer cue than most halls offer, try going to a cue shop and asking them to feel a few out. Get them in your hands and try out varying lengths... something is bound to fit you perfect.
 
Here is something for you to try. Have an extension made that fits between the butt and the shaft. That way the balance remains close to the same and the hit should remain fairly consistent.
 
John Barton said:
Here is something for you to try. Have an extension made that fits between the butt and the shaft. That way the balance remains close to the same and the hit should remain fairly consistent.


YOKEL said:
Since you seem to have already measured yourself and have the tape measure ready, try this...

Measure from your grip at the 90 degree angle to your most comfortable bridge, and add 8" to the cue, and go up and down from there. 8" gives you 4" on the ass end and 4" on the tip from your bridge to accomodate for a longer shot if need be. Most halls have cues of varying length, so it shouldnt be hard to test out.

If you need a longer cue than most halls offer, try going to a cue shop and asking them to feel a few out. Get them in your hands and try out varying lengths... something is bound to fit you perfect..

Thanks for the input guys, but I already shoot with a 60" and it feels real comfortable. I am just conserned about certain shots that I have been missing. I am thinking the longer cue(shaft) is giving too much deflection on long shots when I need to really stroke the CB.

So I was considering going to a OB-1, but a 29" shaft on the 30" butt rather the the 30"/30" split. I heard from many people that a 30" shaft will cause more deflection.
 
I am pretty sure I read somewhere on Diekman's site that he prefers a longer butt than shaft. I think He said somewhere along the lines of 31" butt and 28" shaft.

With 2 shafts of a similar taper, as far as deflection, I can understand that a longer shaft may be slightly whippier and flex a little more resulting in more shaft deflection and less cueball squirt.

I think a shorter shaft would flex less, meaning less shaft deflection and possibly more cueball squirt.

With an ob1, I doubt squirt will be an issue.
 
Yes, I have been hereing more and more on this subject lately. Maybe I will go with the 30". I have a while to mull it over, leaving Monday for a 7 day honeymoon. I'll make desision when I return. Hopefully by then I will have gathered enough info on the subject.
 
belmicah said:
Shaft characteristics and the tip quality are too often ignored. I wonder how Earl played so well with a Cuetec for all those years. I can't shoot with those POS's

earl played well because he is a good player, he could beat most anyone with any cue.

personally i think all this deflection stuff is the product of the marketing guys, if a cue feels good then thats good enough weather its a $200 production cue or a $5,000 custom cue. if it works then thats all thats important.
 
belmicah said:
Shaft characteristics and the tip quality are too often ignored. I wonder how Earl played so well with a Cuetec for all those years. I can't shoot with those POS's
His looks like wood to me.:rolleyes:
 

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