314 Shaft Stiffness changes over time?

X Breaker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you think the stiffness of a shaft will change over time? Can you share with us your experience with your old shafts?

One of my friend told me he felt that his 314 seems to play differently now. He is now thinking of changing back to a regular shaft because he is saying his 314 feels very soft. I am wondering if any of you have had such an experience?

Do you think this happens to all shafts?

Thank you.

Richard
 
nipponbilliards said:
Do you think the stiffness of a shaft will change over time? Can you share with us your experience with your old shafts?

One of my friend told me he felt that his 314 seems to play differently now. He is now thinking of changing back to a regular shaft because he is saying his 314 feels very soft. I am wondering if any of you have had such an experience?

Do you think this happens to all shafts?

Thank you.

Richard

"Regular" shafts loose moisture thru the aging process which, IMO, results in a stiffer/crisper hit.

I don't have long term experience with laminated shafts but I can't recall anyone that uses them mentioning the "hit" becoming "soft". Did your friend change tips?:)
 
I'm in the transition of changing back to a regular shaft. Still searching for right Golden Wand before fully hanging up the 314.
Predator play good.

Certain shots, it tends to have a slight vibration on the front end which i don't like unless you use a close bridge. Also it has an unpredictable stronger serve when playing english on a thicker cut shot especially when playing softer stroke.
IMO each shaft has it's own good point. It will be good for a beginner to start of with a 314 to understand deflection and later move on to other shaft if he wishes to.
 
nipponbilliards said:
Do you think the stiffness of a shaft will change over time? Can you share with us your experience with your old shafts?

One of my friend told me he felt that his 314 seems to play differently now. He is now thinking of changing back to a regular shaft because he is saying his 314 feels very soft. I am wondering if any of you have had such an experience?

Do you think this happens to all shafts?

Thank you.

Richard

Shafts do get tired and wear out. At least that what some pro's have told me. One says a shaft is good for about 4 years. Don't know if I believe that though.

Some time ago I retapered a Meucci black-dot shaft to make it more flexible, make it squirt less. It worked. I called Meucci and told them about my "find" as it shot straighter. They told me I had "juiced" the shaft, and that every shaft after a time of breaking in, which obviously has to vary depending on how someone shoots, will loosen up a bit, thereby reducing squirt a bit.

I don't know how someone could quantify all this, but it probably does happen, although probably so slowly as to be imperceptible, at least on a daily basis.

Flex
 
I thought I have heard it all. People with 314s blasting apart, folks who can "feel" the glue lines, soft shaft that can ding easy (huh?), soft ferrule, "beginner shaft".

One of the best shafts I have ever seen was an old timer with a sneaky Pete cue that had his shaft sanded down like an hour glass, from years of use/sanding. It was great. He knew everything about the game.
 
I have heard about this mainly from two friends whose opinion I greatly respect. They are both professional players. They are now both playing with a Southwest cue. One of them is a girl, she used to shoot with an Adam, shot the lights out, then used a 314, and now she plays with a Southwest and is having the best year so far, winning everything all over the world. She told me she loves her Southwest shafts as she believes it is going to be very consistent over the years. I believe she always plays with a Moori.

I think whether a shaft will gain moisture or dry up over time depends on the difference in moisture content between the shaft and its surrounding. Since the shaft wood is porous, I believe it will absorb and release mositure depending on the atomosphere.

I am not sure if this is correct, but if inferior wood is used for a shaft, is it possible that such wood would lose its "spine" quickly, and therefore play softer after a while.

I have experienced some regular shafts which tend to play softer over time. I also know some people who swear their shafts get stiffer over time. What do you think?

Thank you.

Richard
 
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nipponbilliards said:
I have heard about this mainly from two friends whose opinion I greatly respect. They are both professional players. They are now both playing with a Southwest cue. One of them is a girl, she used to shoot with an Adam, shot the lights out, then used a 314, and now she plays with a Southwest and is having the best year so far, winning everything all over the world. She told me she loves her Southwest shafts as she believes it is going to be very consistent over the years. I believe she always plays with a Moori.

I think whether a shaft will gain moisture or dry up over time depends on the difference in moisture content between the shaft and its surrounding. Since the shaft wood is porous, I believe it will absorb and release mositure depending on the atomosphere.

I am not sure if this is correct, but if inferior wood is used for a shaft, is it possible that such wood would lose its "spine" quickly, and therefore play softer after a while.

Thank you.

Richard

After consulting with one of the WOODOLIGISTS I have on retainer he confirmed that shafts, stored in normal conditions, WILL lose moisture (petrification) as part of the aging cycle. The process is somewhat complex with alternating cycles of moisture gain and loss based on many variables....

If inferior wood is used it won't have an abundance of "spine" to START with making your last question mute. We have taken measures in terms of incoming inspection procedures to insure that BALLBUSTA shafts remain STIFF and STRONG in order to deliver years of satisfaction.:)

Adashka Chachula---founder and ceo
 
You know in reading these threads, I'm amazed I can even make a ball with my 15 year old Schon.. LOL

DJ
 
nipponbilliards said:
One of them is a girl, she used to shoot with an Adam, shot the lights out, then used a 314, and now she plays with a Southwest and is having the best year so far, winning everything all over the world. She told me she loves her Southwest shafts as she believes it is going to be very consistent over the years.
One must not forgot that people are always learning. You can’t expect the world no.1 to know every thing do you. He or she will experience something new once in a while and learn from it. As time goes by they will improve from such knowledge and continue to strive for more to be better. The person that you mention could have developed to a higher level game for the past few years or so. Some cues do play with lesser deflection like a 314 yet has less vibration like some SW, not all.


nipponbilliards said:
I am not sure if this is correct, but if inferior wood is used for a shaft, is it possible that such wood would lose its "spine" quickly, and therefore play softer after a while.

I have experienced some regular shafts which tend to play softer over time. I also know some people who swear their shafts get stiffer over time. What do you think?
Richard

I think they simply just make their own conclusion regarding shaft getting stiffer and softer just by comparing to other shaft. They could have been playing a soft shaft for sometime and suddenly loan and use a cue from a friend and realize that particular cue has a better stiffer hit or vice versa.
He or she has no instrument to gauge the stiffness or softness over time unlike you (not offending anyone here).;)
 
icem3n said:
One must not forgot that people are always learning. You can’t expect the world no.1 to know every thing do you. He or she will experience something new once in a while and learn from it. As time goes by they will improve from such knowledge and continue to strive for more to be better. The person that you mention could have developed to a higher level game for the past few years or so. Some cues do play with lesser deflection like a 314 yet has less vibration like some SW, not all.




I think they simply just make their own conclusion regarding shaft getting stiffer and softer just by comparing to other shaft. They could have been playing a soft shaft for sometime and suddenly loan and use a cue from a friend and realize that particular cue has a better stiffer hit or vice versa.
He or she has no instrument to gauge the stiffness or softness over time unlike you (not offending anyone here).;)

I agree with what you are saying, that players improve and gain knowledge as they go along. A lot of my friends are now going back to using a regular shaft.

When I was told about the change in stiffness, it was a subjective feeling that players shared with me. It was not done with a gauge. I suppose it is possible to conduct such a test. But since I know a lot of posters here are very knowledgable, I was hoping they can share with me their personal opinion and experience.

The impression on the stiffness of the shaft was not the result of trying a borrowed shaft, it was just an obsevation made over years of playing with the same shaft. I am just curious if other people have felt the same way.

With regard to moisture content in a shaft, I think it is common knowledge that shafts will absorb mositure depending on the condition of which it is subjected to. A very well known example will be Southwest shafts that have been exported to Taiwan. Most people are careful how they store their cues since in reality, shaft will take in moisture.

Besides, I am not sure lesser moisture content in the wood would lead to a higher strength, or a stiffer hit. Or is it the other way around?

As a matter of fact, I am not sure if moisture content is what we should be looking at to determine the stiffness of a shaft.

If a piece of wood is inferior, it might have lesser density and might be softer to begin with. My question was, will an inferior piece of wood lose its stiffness faster?

Richard
 
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icem3n said:
One must not forgot that people are always learning. You can’t expect the world no.1 to know every thing do you. He or she will experience something new once in a while and learn from it. As time goes by they will improve from such knowledge and continue to strive for more to be better. The person that you mention could have developed to a higher level game for the past few years or so. Some cues do play with lesser deflection like a 314 yet has less vibration like some SW, not all.

Do you think lesser vibration is good? I am wondering if lesser vibration could lead to lesser feedback?

What do you think?

Richard
 
nipponbilliards said:
Do you think lesser vibration is good? I am wondering if lesser vibration could lead to lesser feedback?

What do you think?

Richard

Do you mean the other way round? like lesser vibration = better feedback?
This remind me of Robert Byrne's cue. I still remember him having a dead stiff Schuler Cue(seen in his video). It was so stiff that there is no vibration in his cue when he hit it in his hand to show the stiffness of his cue. I was saying to myself that's one cue that I won't want to play with.
There no way I can play with those type of cue. This is one question you need to ask Mr.Byrne.

Regarding your earlier post
The tread you brought up here might make some sense.
It might be possible that lost of moisture might affect play of a shaft. One of the taiwanese player did mention about it few year ago when I was in Taiwan. He says one needs to let the cue settle down in a venue(especially tournament) to let it adapt to the situation. He says wood will change according to the room temperature/humidity/weather. He also says it will play differently in different condition. I think your contact in Taiwan might have some knowledge(better) of this.
For my level, i doubt I feel the differences.:D
 
you may be barking up the wrong tree

Richard,

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree. I believe that the adhesive ribs radiating out and the wood that soaks up the adhesive may have more to do with the hit than the original woods used in the pie slice shafts. If this is correct, what you may want to know is the long term mechanical properties of the bonding agent used.

This is a thought and I haven't tried to prove or disprove it yet. However dealing with similar structural shapes the strength comes from the "ribs" or spokes, not the bulk which is mainly filler to hold the ribs in position.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Richard,

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree. I believe that the adhesive ribs radiating out and the wood that soaks up the adhesive may have more to do with the hit than the original woods used in the pie slice shafts. If this is correct, what you may want to know is the long term mechanical properties of the bonding agent used.

This is a thought and I haven't tried to prove or disprove it yet. However dealing with similar structural shapes the strength comes from the "ribs" or spokes, not the bulk which is mainly filler to hold the ribs in position.

Hu

That is possible.

I am not sure what it is, that is why I posted here to ask for opinion. I have never thought about the adhensive used. But it is possible.

And is it possible that adhensive softens over time due to moisture, sunlight, heat, and so on?

Thank you.

Richard
 
icem3n said:
Do you mean the other way round? like lesser vibration = better feedback?
This remind me of Robert Byrne's cue. I still remember him having a dead stiff Schuler Cue(seen in his video). It was so stiff that there is no vibration in his cue when he hit it in his hand to show the stiffness of his cue. I was saying to myself that's one cue that I won't want to play with.
There no way I can play with those type of cue. This is one question you need to ask Mr.Byrne.

Regarding your earlier post
The tread you brought up here might make some sense.
It might be possible that lost of moisture might affect play of a shaft. One of the taiwanese player did mention about it few year ago when I was in Taiwan. He says one needs to let the cue settle down in a venue(especially tournament) to let it adapt to the situation. He says wood will change according to the room temperature/humidity/weather. He also says it will play differently in different condition. I think your contact in Taiwan might have some knowledge(better) of this.
For my level, i doubt I feel the differences.:D

I have seen a Mike Lambros like Byrne's Schuler. You could not even bend the wood by literally bending it with your hands, I swear.

I think less vibration = less feedback, because feedback is vibration one feels in the grip hand as it travels down the shaft through the joint to the butt.

On the other hand, I also think less vibration = more solid hit, because a "solid" hit is defined as a hit with lesser vibration by definition.

Therefore, I believe there has to be a balance between how much vibration is transmitted in order to achieve the perfect balance of a solid hit with sensitive feedback.

On a side note, if a shaft is very dry, wouldn't it be weaker? I am thinking because if you look at the structure in a wood cell, fluid takes up a lot of room in the cell to mentain structural integrity of the wood, once most water is gone, the structure would collaspe (shrunk and become brittle).

I believe that shaft wood would eventually reach an equilibrium, but it does not mean it will necessarily dry up to a very large extend to the point of affecting the stiffness.

A shaft is being used and transported all over the places, so it is not the same as when a piece of log is being cut out and left in a kiln or out in the wilderness on its own for years.

Whether the shaft is being used in Japan or the US, it needs to get accustom to its surroundings. To reach an equilibrium with its surrounding in terms of moisture is important in my opinion. It is not because it will make the shaft play stiffer, but it is simply essential to make the shaft "right," or play consistent during the whole match.

But strength of the shaft is not largely determined by the moisture content in the shaft or in its surroundings in my opinion. I think the density, and other mechanical properties of the wood is the factors we should be looking at.

I could be totally worng, as I am no expert in wood. I would like to hear more feedback and opinion. I love this forum because there are so many knowledgable posters here.

Thank you.

Richard
 
very possible

It is very possible for adhesives to break down or soften due to a large number of things, including simply time. The bedding material in rifles is usually an epoxy and one of these is known to soften over time, seemingly simply due to aging.

I don't know the facts concerning the pie shafts myself but repeatedly hearing that low grade wood is often used in these shafts leads me to speculate that the adhesive itself is a significant part of the stiffness of these shafts.

I want to spend some time experimenting with various laminations and grain orientations testing flex with a simple weight and pointer hung on the end of the shafts but I have too many irons in the fire right now for that to happen anytime soon. It would seem like a pretty easy test fixture to set up though. Matter of fact I have dial indicators with two inches of travel that read out in thousandths of an inch. Probably more accuracy than needed but it could be fun to play with. Collet spin indexers still in the boxes too . . . It would be interesting to map the flex in a standard shaft and one of the pie segment shafts with the same taper and then retest every three months or so.

Hu



nipponbilliards said:
That is possible.

I am not sure what it is, that is why I posted here to ask for opinion. I have never thought about the adhensive used. But it is possible.

And is it possible that adhensive softens over time due to moisture, sunlight, heat, and so on?

Thank you.

Richard
 
ShootingArts said:
It is very possible for adhesives to break down or soften due to a large number of things, including simply time. The bedding material in rifles is usually an epoxy and one of these is known to soften over time, seemingly simply due to aging.
I second that.


ShootingArts said:
I want to spend some time experimenting with various laminations and grain orientations testing flex with a simple weight and pointer hung on the end of the shafts but I have too many irons in the fire right now for that to happen anytime soon. It would seem like a pretty easy test fixture to set up though. Matter of fact I have dial indicators with two inches of travel that read out in thousandths of an inch. Probably more accuracy than needed but it could be fun to play with. Collet spin indexers still in the boxes too . . . It would be interesting to map the flex in a standard shaft and one of the pie segment shafts with the same taper and then retest every three months or so.
I can’t wait to see the result. Maybe it might explain the unpredictable stronger swerve I sometime encounter.



nipponbilliards said:
I think less vibration = less feedback, because feedback is vibration one feels in the grip hand as it travels down the shaft through the joint to the butt.

On the other hand, I also think less vibration = more solid hit, because a "solid" hit is defined as a hit with lesser vibration by definition.

Therefore, I believe there has to be a balance between how much vibration is transmitted in order to achieve the perfect balance of a solid hit with sensitive feedback.
I would agree with that, there should be a balance. I won’t want to play with one dead stiff cue (I haven’t tried one before :D ).
 
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