5/16-18 joint mystery.

[Mensabum]

Open the can
Tear the lid off. This is good stuff.
The answer when it comes to Joint screws is.....
They vary in size. Most of the screws are rolled thread, some are single pointed.
Roll thread, depends on what company produced them and the size dies they used.
Single pointed can vary too. Check previous discussions on the Radial joint screw. They vary!

I want to thank everyone who commented and supplied the excellent info on this topic without resulting in the usual nonsense we've seen too much of lately.
Thanks to all the AZ studs who stepped up!!!
This topic has been a thorn in my side far too long. It's finally been pulled!!

 

[Michael Webb]

Have

Have the tolerances on those lessened over the years?? I've heard the Japanese have the tightest, most rigid tolerances in the world.
Have we gotten lazy and missed a step or two??
Or is that just heresay??

I was told by a popular shop known to most Cue makers. He does rolled threading. The dies wear and are expensive to replace. Tough action on screws that sell for short money
And......
They're feeling the pinch of overseas offerings.
Reality!

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Have

Have the tolerances on those lessened over the years?? I've heard the Japanese have the tightest, most rigid tolerances in the world.
Have we gotten lazy and missed a step or two??
Or is that just heresay??

That is an extremely complex question.

When you say the Japanese 'have' the tightest tolerances, you are asking a different question than whether the Japanese are capable of holding the tightest tolerances.

The answer to the first part is no--the Japanese developed very good standards, JIS that are comparable to ANSI (American National), DIN (Deutsche), etc.. The point of standards is to make parts that perform how they are supposed to, regardless of where in the world they are made.

The second part of the question is the really interesting one, and I don't have enough knowledge to really say one way or another. My personal experience is that most of the manufacturing countries are capable of about the same--Germany, Japan, and USA probably lead, but even countries like Taiwan, Brazil, South Korea, and India are producing outstanding parts.

What you heard is really a product of the 1960's through the 1990's (??? @Cornerman might know better and is welcomed to chime in). After WWII decimated Japanese production, they started fresh and adopted processes to consistently produce parts in spec in short periods of time--or at least well timed production. So, what really happened is that they lowered the cost of manufacturing by reducing the amount of parts that failed inspection. While doing this, they also refused to have huge stores of raw materials or finished parts, which led to lowered costs in shipping and storage.

It really is a difficult question that is a bit like fighting a Hydra--there are just too many variables to understand it all without seriously devoting a ton of time to researching it. That is really to get to the point of these paragraphs, which is to say that I've used precision parts from many countries, been part of projects that sent very high precision, very large machinery to many countries, but I only know enough to know that I don't know.

 

[j2pac]

Hello all.
Posting this here bcuz I searched forums for answers, but found none. Can an expert solve this for me once and for all... Why do some 5/16-18 fit certain cues and not others with same diameter pin and joint?? Example: Players 5/16-18 fits Meucci and Mali, but not Heubler.
Heubler 5/16-18 won't fit Meucci or Players.
These are all supposed to be 5/16-18 thread cues. Somebody rise up and tackle this please.
This is why I've always gone 5/16-14. Lol. Only diff there is piloted varies. Help!!??

Yep. I have a Wrapless fullsplice Helmstetter with a 5/16-18 pin. I ordered a set of joint protectors for the cue. The female JP fits on the butt, but the male JP absolutely will not screw in to the shaft, more than a couple of turns. The two JPs were screwed together when I received them. Probably the minor diameter, as many here have suggested.

 

[Cornerman]

That is an extremely complex question.

When you say the Japanese 'have' the tightest tolerances, you are asking a different question than whether the Japanese are capable of holding the tightest tolerances.

The answer to the first part is no--the Japanese developed very good standards, JIS that are comparable to ANSI (American National), DIN (Deutsche), etc.. The point of standards is to make parts that perform how they are supposed to, regardless of where in the world they are made.

The second part of the question is the really interesting one, and I don't have enough knowledge to really say one way or another. My personal experience is that most of the manufacturing countries are capable of about the same--Germany, Japan, and USA probably lead, but even countries like Taiwan, Brazil, South Korea, and India are producing outstanding parts.

What you heard is really a product of the 1960's through the 1990's (??? @Cornerman might know better and is welcomed to chime in). After WWII decimated Japanese production, they started fresh and adopted processes to consistently produce parts in spec in short periods of time--or at least well timed production. So, what really happened is that they lowered the cost of manufacturing by reducing the amount of parts that failed inspection. While doing this, they also refused to have huge stores of raw materials or finished parts, which led to lowered costs in shipping and storage.

It really is a difficult question that is a bit like fighting a Hydra--there are just too many variables to understand it all without seriously devoting a ton of time to researching it. That is really to get to the point of these paragraphs, which is to say that I've used precision parts from many countries, been part of projects that sent very high precision, very large machinery to many countries, but I only know enough to know that I don't know.

Yes. Look up Edwards Deming, who introduced what ended influencing what would become the Toyota Production System organized lean manufacturing, continuous improvement,and Just in Time manufacturing. It’s a methodology that has influenced all manufacturing, recognizing and reducing waste.

But to the question of “have we gotten lazy?” That’s too broad brush to answer. I’ve worked with great, precision manufacturers in many countries. Each country has the C teams, too.

 

[Mensabum]

Yep. I have a Wrapless fullsplice Helmstetter with a 5/16-18 pin. I ordered a set of joint protectors for the cue. The female JP fits on the butt, but the male JP absolutely will not screw in to the shaft, more than a couple of turns. The two JPs were screwed together when I received them. Probably the minor diameter, as many here have suggested.

On the same cue??
Now I've heard it all!! Lol.
Back to square one.

 

[Mensabum]

Yes. Look up Edwards Deming, who introduced what ended influencing what would become the Toyota Production System organized lean manufacturing, continuous improvement,and Just in Time manufacturing. It’s a methodology that has influenced all manufacturing, recognizing and reducing waste.

But to the question of “have we gotten lazy?” That’s too broad brush to answer. I’ve worked with great, precision manufacturers in many countries. Each country has the C teams, too.

I worked for an after market sub contractor on GMs lot back in 99. All we did was remove small defects from parts headed for the assembly line. My comment about the Japanese and tolerances was based on my experience at this company.
The transmission parts... Especially valve bodies from Japan needed no touch ups. The crates full of parts from a company in Tennessee needed a whole lotta love, if you catch my drift. Burrs everywhere!! None on the imported parts. Please don't misconstrue. I'm not trying to advocate for any other country here. I love mine and it's the best one on the face of this earth, bar none!! That being said,
I have seen workers doing just enuf to get by, for whatever reasons and fortunately they are few.
Anyone familiar w transmissions knows that small metal particles can be the death of any fluid drive system.
IMO, These other countries adopted best practices in order to increase our reliance on their manufacturing industries. Outsourcing has become a fact of life in part due to this very thing. And I'm getting off on a tangent, so let me just pull it back in here. Lol.

 

[Cornerman]

I worked for an after market sub contractor on GMs lot back in 99. All we did was remove small defects from parts headed for the assembly line. My comment about the Japanese and tolerances was based on my experience at this company.
The transmission parts... Especially valve bodies from Japan needed no touch ups. The crates full of parts from a company in Tennessee needed a whole lotta love, if you catch my drift. Burrs everywhere!! None on the imported parts. Please don't misconstrue. I'm not trying to advocate for any other country here. I love mine and it's the best one on the face of this earth, bar none!! That being said,
I have seen workers doing just enuf to get by, for whatever reasons and fortunately they are few.
Anyone familiar w transmissions knows that small metal particles can be the death of any fluid drive system.
IMO, These other countries adopted best practices in order to increase our reliance on their manufacturing industries. Outsourcing has become a fact of life in part due to this very thing. And I'm getting off on a tangent, so let me just pull it back in here. Lol.

That’s not why they adopted best practices.

Outsourcing is mostly about cost of goods. The world was buying from Japan because the overall cost made sense. The world severely slowed down on Japanese imports in the 90’s, and a lot of Japanese manufacturing came to North America.

I’ve worked for two Japanese companies (anyone can check my LinkedIn) and worked with several more. They all have field failures and recalls. I’ve worked in automation for over 30 years. Some of the worst automation I’ve had the pleasure of working on was from Japan. That’s not a knock on the country, as many Japanese companies make great automation. It’s a knock on that specific company as they took a lot of shortcuts and made unsafe equipment.. Good news is that it taught me the difference between best practices and not.

Not sure why we’re talking about this. Maybe the message is: please don’t base your cue purchases or give cue advice on sweeping generalizations that in the real world don’t hold up.

 

[Cornerman]

On the same cue??
Now I've heard it all!! Lol.
Back to square one.

You already got your answer to this. The JPs were built with larger major and minor diameters than the Helmstetter. The female JP will fit, but the male JP won’t. This is the same idea with Schon vs Joss, which you said was well known. Maybe it’s not so well understood then.

A Helmstetter used different pins depending on where they manufactured. Adam moved their manufacturing to China in the late 90’s. There was a distinct pin change. The Balabushka Cue Conpany now own the Helmstetter brand, so that cue if ordered today would be built in Taiwan.

 

[garczar]

Yes. Look up Edwards Deming, who introduced what ended influencing what would become the Toyota Production System organized lean manufacturing, continuous improvement,and Just in Time manufacturing. It’s a methodology that has influenced all manufacturing, recognizing and reducing waste.

But to the question of “have we gotten lazy?” That’s too broad brush to answer. I’ve worked with great, precision manufacturers in many countries. Each country has the C teams, too.

The Deming Prize is still to this day the highest award for production quality standards in Japan. Ford was going bankrupt until they hired a then-retired Deming to totally re-do their structure. That led to the Taurus coming out and basically saving the company.

 

[Mensabum]

That’s not why they adopted best practices.

Outsourcing is mostly about cost of goods. The world was buying from Japan because the overall cost made sense. The world severely slowed down on Japanese imports in the 90’s, and a lot of Japanese manufacturing came to North America.

I’ve worked for two Japanese companies (anyone can check my LinkedIn) and worked with several more. They all have field failures and recalls. I’ve worked in automation for over 30 years. Some of the worst automation I’ve had the pleasure of working on was from Japan. That’s not a knock on the country, as many Japanese companies make great automation. It’s a knock on that specific company as they took a lot of shortcuts and made unsafe equipment.. Good news is that it taught me the difference between best practices and not.

Not sure why we’re talking about this. Maybe the message is: please don’t base your cue purchases or give cue advice on sweeping generalizations that in the real world don’t hold up.

Very good advice.

 

[Mensabum]

I'm outta this. FAR smarter people on this subject have pretty much cleared it up.

Can it be found in ask the cuemaker??