70s/80s Era Questions

[Pawlowski424]

So, here's my list of questions lol:

What was the general pocket size for pro-speed tournaments?

What were table conditions like?

I've noticed players of this era (Varner, Hall, Sigel, etc) playing with steel joint. What was the belief behind forward balanced/steel joint cues?

Is the information that's available today (pocket lines, cue ball physics, navigating the table, etc. Advanced details, so to speak), the same information as back then? If not, what has changed?

 

[maha]

y

Same game played with different balls is all. Five reds and the pink six ball, or 2-7 snooker balls. I've seen it played both ways.
By the way this game was (and is) played on the American sized snooker table, 5'x10' and not the European 6'x12' table. Another difference in these tables that not everyone is aware of is the height difference. The American version's playing surface is typically right around 30" high (same as a pool table) and the Euro table's playing surface is closer to 32" high. Sounds small but that's a huge difference!

yep same game. rotation with money balls played in a ring game is played all around the world differently but still the same game with small changes. it is fun and if not dominated by too good of a player or two, everyone, can have fun and possibly win.

 

[tburns1]

So, here's my list of questions lol:

What was the general pocket size for pro-speed tournaments?

What were table conditions like?

I've noticed players of this era (Varner, Hall, Sigel, etc) playing with steel joint. What was the belief behind forward balanced/steel joint cues?

Is the information that's available today (pocket lines, cue ball physics, navigating the table, etc. Advanced details, so to speak), the same information as back then? If not, what has changed?

I played with all those guys as a 20 year old back in early 1990 and quit at 23 in ‘93 from open 9 ball play. Back then Brunswick with fast 760 simonis & centineal balls and pockets varied depending on the tournament set up usually 4.5” pockets was the set up I had a steel joint then. I just started playing again and played more in the last 2 months than in 30 years I’m 53 now. Now they have 100’s of tips to choose from, all these low defection shafts & break cue options. Table size is still simonis & 9’ & tips feel & cues other than deflection technology has changed. I now still use my custom huebler break jump & custom Billy Teeter playing cue. Cheers

 

[tburns1]

So, here's my list of questions lol:

What was the general pocket size for pro-speed tournaments?

What were table conditions like?

I've noticed players of this era (Varner, Hall, Sigel, etc) playing with steel joint. What was the belief behind forward balanced/steel joint cues?

Is the information that's available today (pocket lines, cue ball physics, navigating the table, etc. Advanced details, so to speak), the same information as back then? If not, what has changed?

 

[garczar]

Pockets were normally standard GC size or maybe shimmed a lil. No info./tech like today. Weren't that many makers and most used steel joints. Meucci, McD were plastic flat face but most others were steel back then. SW, Kersenbrock kinda started the phenolic big pin cues.

 

[maha]

brass, then steel joints came in. around 1970 more makers started using other materials for joints, and ferrules.

i knew dave k. when he was in vegas and starting out. tried to get him to sell me a cue but he was too busy talking to himself most times.
he did make great stuff a genius at it.

 

[gregcantrall]

Pool is FAR more robust around the PNW now than it was in the 80's. Was mostly weekly $5 tavern tournaments with a few bigger money tavern tournaments during the year. Tables were a quarter too! Only was one pool league around here (Seattle) and it was a struggle to keep it going

I think it was 82 when I started my pool education at The White Spot in Fife. By about 87 I hit the East side living in Bellevue and working Woodinville. I rarely ever ventured to the West side. I played the little $5 tournaments every night with in a reasonable radius . Averaged $250 a week as a hobby while working construction.
The practice night I had with another player for $3 on the 9 were incredible. Tuesday nights after little tournament. I won around 4-1 in the neighborhood of under $40 he even had to hit the cash machine once. He got 7-8 in the next Reno Sands event. guess it was worth the investment to him.

 

[gregcantrall]

brass, then steel joints came in.

The ivory joints in the Joss east cues were incredible and gave a good vibe to the hit. Stainless joint was good enough for Cole. Roger Petit cues were a great value with a totally different hit a great tool. It all depends on the hit you like. My taste has evolved.

 

[gregcantrall]

The majority of my bar box income came with the plain Jane Pettit $60 cue he made from recycled 211 broken stuff. He even made me his first ivory ferrule for $40. (I tipped him for sure). The ivory came from an old cueball.

 

[gregcantrall]

The Meuch E joint was the closest to ivory, in my experience. I did well with my Mooch E. The Cole cue I now shoot with figures to be my last. So no excuses when I miss. Just reality......You Wanna Play Some?

 

[Mensabum]

The ivory joints in the Joss east cues were incredible and gave a good vibe to the hit. Stainless joint was good enough for Cole. Roger Petit cues were a great value with a totally different hit a great tool. It all depends on the hit you like. My taste has evolved.

You mean people can tell the difference between hits of different materials??

 

[Mensabum]

A lot of good posts on here already. Simoniz cloth was rarely seen on Pool tables until the mid to late 80’s. It was primarily Three Cushion cloth. Steven’s cloth was more widely used and yes it played slow. You needed a Stroke to move the cue ball around.

Al Conte set up the Gold Crowns for most of the major tournaments and they played Perfect! Probably around 4 5/8 to 4 3/4 inch straight cut pockets with semi deep shelves. Definitely not buckets, balls did not slide in!

In the 1970’s everybody still played with one cue! Breaking and playing cue were the same. There was no such thing as a jump cue!

The elite players (Buddy, Sigel, Hopkins, Varner, Rempe, Miz) ran racks, often three or four in a row. Then along came Earl in the 80’s and he was running sixes and sevens in every match!

The “feel” players preferred ivory joints and the power players liked steel.

Everybody wanted to have the hardest break possible and make balls on the break. David Howard, Wade (Billy Johnson) Crane, Tony Ellin, Danny Medina had the most powerful breaks, but Earl had the best/most effective break. He studied the art of breaking in 9-Ball!

It's been said there's no difference in hit, but I can tell, and apparently a helluva lot of other players can as well - between steel jointed cues and implex or others. I don't care what somebody's 'test' says.
When the top players in the world explained the finites of this, I listened and observed.
There is a noticeable difference and players match joint types with their stroke and often pocketing speed.
Glad somebody cleared that up for me. Lol. Thanks Jay.

 

[Mensabum]

Oh, but you left out Cool Cat Martins 99 Critical Shots of Pool. I remember when it came out in ‘77, it was like the Holy Grail to me.

Hope you're doing ok.

 

[maha]

yea they give a different hit but you like the hit or not you dont tell from the different materials as to the hit. the hit is what it is.

greg i remember you from washington and northern oregon. you played at lincoln city also in the tournaments.
i had many of coles cues as i was his friend and he always sold them to me when he got broke and called billy for another.
i dont think he ever wanted one back.
what year did 211 go away. i forget.

 

[Island Drive]

l loved ivory joints, but if you were in snow country and took your cue in from the car and didnt wait awhile your joint might crack unless it had warmed up. cracked a few bill stroud josh joints and ferels until i wised up to it.

I always enjoyed when the Red Raider played in the pit at Janscos.
When his match was called, wife went out to the car for his cue.
Next she took it outta the case.... then used her hands to warm up the cue for a bit, till ready.
Was always kind of wet/damp low 40's high 30's that time of year at Johnson City IL, most of that crew used ivory.

 

[gregcantrall]

yea they give a different hit but you like the hit or not you dont tell from the different materials as to the hit. the hit is what it is.

greg i remember you from washington and northern oregon. you played at lincoln city also in the tournaments.
i had many of coles cues as i was his friend and he always sold them to me when he got broke and called billy for another.
i dont think he ever wanted one back.
what year did 211 go away. i forget.

The cue I bought from Cole had his name and date in ink under the wrap(middle '80s. I got it around '87), it also has a number scribed into the face of the stainless joint. Cole got busted by Don Wirtiman on a tournament night at Harry's place in Lynnwood. Cole was there to play Harry with one barrel. He played Harry one pocket for $1,000/game giving him 9-7. Wirtiman had $100 that Danny gave him and told him to shoot it at Cole. Started at $10 nine ball and evolved to $100+ one pocket. Cole had 2 butts and 6 shafts. I loaned him $500 against the cues that night after he was empty. With a disclaimer to Cole. I said, "I don't think I am doing you a favor but if you want to continue I will loan 500 against the cues. When that was gone he slung the case over his shoulder and said, "I will meet you tomorrow and pay up". I gently took the case and replied, "Okay". He had the $500 the next day but that's all. So I offered to buy the one butt and one shaft for $200. During the sales pitch it was a Joss West but at redemption it was Joss East. At the redemption meet the first thing Cole checked was for his waterbuffalo tips in a baggie. His original supplier had passed away and they were the last of his make. New makers just didn't make them the same. Pretty sure Danny Janes had his specs on file.
Maybe a year later (then next time we met), Cole told me he wouldn't be able to shoot with my (his old) Cue now.
I enjoyed his insights into cue characteristics and his preferences. From Cole I learned that straight pool would favor a stiffer shaft than 9 ball. Short precision shape vs around the table long range moves often required in 9 ball. He compared the shaft flex to a pole vault flex.
The 211 was still alive at 2nd and Bell when I left that part of the state. Heck I can't remember what year it moved from Union.
The slight difference in hits and feel and sound requires a connisour taste to develop a preference.

 

[gregcantrall]

You mean people can tell the difference between hits of different materials??

Yes. The joint and ferrule will change the feel and sound. The shaft size taper and material is a huge factor as well. The pro taper in a maple shaft compared to the size and taper of the ash in a snooker cue provides opposing ends of a spectrum.

 

[gregcantrall]

l loved ivory joints, but if you were in snow country and took your cue in from the car and didnt wait awhile your joint might crack unless it had warmed up. cracked a few bill stroud josh joints and ferels until i wised up to it.

My ivory ferrule has a long Crack that is close to the length of the ferrule. I gave the Crack a good dose of acetone before superglue. My theory is the solvent gives the deepest possible penetration of the glue into the Crack. It's been that way for years. I break with it. Roger's ivory ferrule had a Crack from day 1 but it never grew. Roger of course guaranteed it. Ivory cracks don't have to be fatal.

 

[gregcantrall]

some ring games were like 5 on the 5ball and 10 on the 9ball.

Our ring games varied slightly from house to house. The usual was 5 players max. Some places only wanted 4. Respot was most common. One before the 5 and 2 before the 9. Some only wanted pay on the 9.
The Ram in University Place had a designated ring game table. After work it started at 1 and 2. Since only 4 were allowed in, newcomers that wanted in would promote, "raise the bet". A local custom that sometimes led to a 10 and 20 game. (Usually a Friday night).

 

[Mensabum]

yea they give a different hit but you like the hit or not you dont tell from the different materials as to the hit. the hit is what it is.

greg i remember you from washington and northern oregon. you played at lincoln city also in the tournaments.
i had many of coles cues as i was his friend and he always sold them to me when he got broke and called billy for another.
i dont think he ever wanted one back.
what year did 211 go away. i forget.

Never heard it put that way. Well said.

 

[gregcantrall]

The Cole story that's my favorite:
Kelso Longview team tournament with Seattle and Portland all star teams. 87 is my best guess . Coles team was on the alert for Cole and vodka. Big no no. So Cole was stuck with water. Jackie was adjacent the table and saw a full glass of water. She needed a sip for her throat. Ooops Cole had her wrist and whispered.
So through the course of the tournament Cole had gone bust and hawked his rig 3 times to 3 different 300 each. ($1000 rig easy) and still slung the cue. Vince picked up the other 2 markers. Vince rode with the Wife and I drove Cole back to Fife truck stop where $1000 was waiting. Cole paid the debt and breakfast tab and carried on.
He did make my top 3 for incredible shots.
Mike Massey
Cole
Efren
In any order. All jump shots. Mike's made a Byrne book. With diagram of shot executed in competition. Full table draw for 2 ball frozen to head rail. Efrens was to escape a trap he had set. Taking whitey 3 rails around the table to hide the cue ball behind 3 balls. The third was Bumped on the way in to hit the rail then closed the door behind whitey that nestled in the Jaws. A stray ball found a pocket and now Efren bounced it off the point to get a hit And Hook!
Coles was just a simple straight up cueball after impact to clear for the straight back playing 1 pocket. Pretty cool thousand dollar shot.