8 BALL - A true test for world class players?

[enzo]

one pocket...

many times when there are clusters, one guy has a relatively easy out because he has a good breakout and/or insurance ball. the other guy is left in a situation where he HAS to try and get out to win the game. he ends up going into a cluster and luck dictates whether he gets out or not. i just think it's a crappy game, but at the same time im sure the cream will rise to the top in spite of this. that is, the final 10 or so players will probably be some of the best players in the tournament, but, when you get down to this stage of the tournament whoever get the rolls will win (i heard jeff carter say this and ive always agreed with it). this is true of 9ball too.

the only way to really avoid this and have a truly true test of skill would be to have a one pocket tour.

 

[JoeyA]

Eight Ball is indeed the best game for television for the very reason that most of the recreational players (league players) play the game.

It is the masses that we need watching pool on TV to generate the advertising revenues which can fuel the engine of promoting pool. It is they that have jobs and more disposable income to spend on the sport as well.

Eight Ball is also easier than 9 Ball simply because their are far more ways to run out a rack of eight ball than there are to run out a rack of 9Ball.

It goes without saying that you of course have to be able to see the additional patters to run out a rack of 8 Ball but MOST pros will be able to do it even if they seldom play 8 ball which most seldom do.

Go Eight Ball. Go IPT. And good luck to you in your journey.
Warm Regards,
JoeyA

On one of my recent visits to the states I got chatting to a well respected member of this forum about 8 ball. I mentioned that I love the game and I always thought it strange that since most of the worlds recreational player play 8 ball that it wasn't the TV game of choice. I was a little suprised to here that some of the old legends of the game thought that 8 ball wasn't as difficult as 9 ball (or a true test for world class players).

I wasn't sure I agreed with this but with all the buzz around 8 ball recently I dusted down my cue and had a session yesterday. I played the 8 ball ghost race to 10. I played the cue ball from where it came to rest after the break everytime and won 10-1 (sadly I hooked myself on the final 8 ball at 9:0 for the whitewash!)

My feeling is that top would class players would prob beat the 8 ball ghost 85-15 or more if they played 100 racks. I'm now starting to believe playing the 8 ball ghost is indeed easier than playing 9 ball ghost, therefore logically this would mean that 8 ball is an easier game than 9 ball?

What doess everyone else think? (PS I still ADORE 8 ball)

 

[sniper]

I wished I was considered a shortstop


Chris> will never read a ten page thread again.

 

[hippiepool]

vnea florida state

i will be visiting the state tournament....i will not be competing in it but i would like to match up with someone playing 8-ball

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[Bibleman]

Bar Tables Tougher

:

Howdy,
Playing 8 Ball on 9 foot table is a joke to a pro player.It is more a BUNTING game. Long time ago in one my posts I mentioned that these old retired hall of famers that are invited to play in IPT will not find any difficulty to play with the current,young pros.That is because u do not have to shoot many long shots or difficult angles.Compared to 9 ball,1pocket 8 Ball is a very easy game for pro level player. Playing 8 Ball on a 7 foot table is a whole different thing.

I agree 100%. 8 Ball on a 9 foot table at the professional level is a joke. In Louieville I watched hundreds of top players compete for a spot on the IPT tour. The first match I watched the winner ran four racks right off to bat.

When the balls are open on a 9 foot table, as they usually are, a run is just a matter of picking shots and pure shot making. That to the ability of the shooter was almost all I saw there. When problems came up, even good players stumbled because they don't know that part of 8 ball. Their game seems to be purely a runout contest.

8 Ball is a much tougher game on a bar table. Especially if it is a run of the mill table with slow cloth and an overweight cue ball.

But the big difference in bar table play is clusters. Almost every rack has some kind of cluster problem to solve. Smart safety play is needed to win in bar competition. A player has to be well versed in how to handle difficult situations to be a champ on a bar table.

Cue ball control must be more precise on a bar box. A little slip that goes unnoticed on a 9 foot table is lethal in bar play where position routes are often obstructed.

Very little of this happens in big table 8 Ball.

An example comes from a bar team I used to Captain. During a league match on a bar table, no one on either team made a table run. Later we played on 9 footers and ran 4 of the first 10 racks— keep in mind that these were amateurs.

Some big table players like Johnny Archer and Buddy Hall are very good on bar tables because they began their careers on small tables, but many pros are nothing but suckers when they get in a game with a good bar table player.
Bibleman

 

[Bibleman]

Different Games

They don't play on 7 ftrs. because it bores them to tears!

I've interviewed over 50 top players and none of them said that. Many confessed that they couldn't compete on bar tables (Steve Mizerak was an example who couldn't beat any decent 8-baller on a bar box).

The ones who were familiar with small table play all said that it was tougher.

Some players who ridicule bar table play will NOT put up any cash against a top bar table player like David Mattlock or Louie Lemke (now deceased) who they might defeat on the big table, but have zero chance against on 7 footers.

Expert bar table players like Bunny Rogoff (aka Pots and Pans) beat the big table champions for years. All of the oldtimers from Sigel's era, including Sigel himself, went down in flames playing on bar tables against Rogoff and other expert bar box shooters.

It is not too much to say that big table 8 ball and small table 8 ball are DIFFERENT GAMES.

Bar table play is much more interesting because of the constant problem solving required. But that requires thinking which is not in the job decription for many pros.
Bibleman

 

[jimmyg]

Opinions Change

Interesting question, and, I guess, it depends on what one's perspective is. Growing up playing almost entirely straight pool, with some "money ball" rotation for fun mostly, I always thought that 8 ball was for the Boy's Club or the bar table players - never thought of them as serious pool players. But, then again, at that time, I also thought of 9 ball as being only a gamblers game and mostly luck.
It wasn't until I started playing in some fairly serious local 9 ball tournaments in New York twenty years later that I realized how difficult serious 9 ball is, and developed a very strong respect for the game. Always tried to estimate the equivilent 9 ball run to a straight pool run. ie: running two racks of nine ball equal to a 30 ball run at straight pool, etc.
Well, I still have little interest in 8 ball and therefore do not play the game, I only play on quality 4.5 by 9 footers and not on 8 footers or barboxes, unless I'm having a drink somewhere and can't resist hitting a rack on the house table, but I just can't take it too seriously. I guess what I leading to is that, maybe, if I really gave it a chance, I'd feel differently. Maybe I'll try a few games this week!!

 

[Bibleman]

snip Say for instance in 8ball you run out and hang the 8ball. Your opponent is still left with 7 balls on the table and has the 8ball hanging in the back of his mind know if he misses you won the game. Chris

The operative words are "if he misses." With all of your balls out of the way the incoming player has an excellent chance of clearing the table or opening his/her clusters and problem balls with safety play. The player who runs down to the last ball and misses can only hope to win against very weak players.

Players who have read The Eight Ball Bible know the suicidal risk you take in missing the last ball in a group. Landing in 1-ball hell puts the shooter at the total mercy of the opponent.

The fellow with five or six balls in play usually has multiple safety options or if the balls are clear a run out is easy.

Shooting into 1-Ball Hell is a bad habit that should be broken ASAP.

When you see that a run out plan has gone off the rails, you must stop making balls immediately or find a lock safety to inflict on your foe. Unless making a ball leads to a good safety, you must stop making balls the instant a run out becomes impossible. Things will not get better by taking more balls off when you cannot finish the rack. Indeed, fewer balls makes it easier to play you safe.

Shooting into 1-Ball Hell is a very common 8-ball error among overly aggressive big table players.
Bibleman

 

[Leil gay]

I do not like the option after the break, that rule belongs in the leagues JMO i love no jump cues i always thought they cheapened pool, would love to show the Bibleman my thinking playing any game. (he really put his foot in his mouth)

 

[vagabond]

im a good looking bloke and my sister must be alright looking. cheers mate!
cheers,
Dave.

Hey good looking,did u go home or you are with David & Richerd in sacramento?

 

[vagabond]

im a good looking bloke and my sister must be alright looking. cheers mate!
cheers,
Dave.

Hey good looking,did u go home or you are with David & Richard in sacramento? cheers

 

[biblewriter]

Bar Tables Tougher

I think it depends if its on a 7' or 9' table.

You have hit the key point dead center.

On 4-1/2' X 9' tables 8-ball is not much of a challenge. Shortstops can run 30-40% of the racks from the break. Pros are hard put to run 40% of the racks on a tight pocket bar table while ordinary players get out less than 1 in 25 tries.

Johnny Archer ran all seven racks in one of his IPT matches (he ran 5 and then 2).

If we are talking about 7' tables everything changes. Even pros have a hard time on a small table. If they are weak in pattern play they can get beaten like a drum in a hail storm. It is stunning to watch a laser beam shooter put themselves into impossible positions that give the game away time after time.

The killer notion in bar play is the idea that a player can make ANY shot because of the smaller table. Trying to run out every time quickly puts good shot makers in the loser's bracket.

 

[ridewiththewind]

You have hit the key point dead center.

On 4-1/2' X 9' tables 8-ball is not much of a challenge. Shortstops can run 30-40% of the racks from the break. Pros are hard put to run 40% of the racks on a tight pocket bar table while ordinary players get out less than 1 in 25 tries.

Johnny Archer ran all seven racks in one of his IPT matches (he ran 5 and then 2).

If we are talking about 7' tables everything changes. Even pros have a hard time on a small table. If they are weak in pattern play they can get beaten like a drum in a hail storm. It is stunning to watch a laser beam shooter put themselves into impossible positions that give the game away time after time.

The killer notion in bar play is the idea that a player can make ANY shot because of the smaller table. Trying to run out every time quickly puts good shot makers in the loser's bracket.

I am coming into this debate a wee bit late.

I happen to believe that a 9ft table makes not only 8 Ball easier, but 9 Ball as well....and for the exact same reasons....just a whole lot more table surface to work with.

I am a very proud and happy owner of The Eight Ball Bible, having purchased a copy when it was first released. I thought so highly of the basic information provided, that as the captain of a Womens 8 Ball League, it is 'required' reading for my girls.

Here's the thing, in our area of the country, almost all of out barboxes are 8ft, and not 7ft. It wasn't too much of a problem, as the two main points I wanted them to wrap their heads around was that of pattern play and shot safety play.

Even on an 8ft barbox, 8 Ball is more difficult than on a 9ft, for the reasons mentioned in the above post(s). The tendency is to still encounter clusters that need to be dealt with. To be quite honest, it's the 'thinking' part of the game that continues to bring me back to the table. And again, I agree, that the 'run out' mentality will not always serve a player well on a smaller table...it's just entirely too easy get into '1 Ball Hell'.

I have to say, that the one thing that that book did for me above anything else, was to teach me how to achieve a really good shot safety play. It has become so utterly automatic for me....and completely frustrating for my opponents...lol. But I get a LOT of compliments on my ability to do it well.

Okay, I am getting off my original mark here. I happen to believe that 8 Ball can be played at a world class level....but only if it is done on a smaller table such as a barbox....be it 7ft or 8ft. If it is played on a 9ft table, it will begin to bore me to tears, much as 9 Ball has begun to do. I want to see how a world class player is going to handle a cluster situation...or even 1 Ball Hell, for that matter. I would also like to see no jump cues allowed...I think it just makes the game too easy...and really negates a player using good safety play or shot safety play if you can solve the problem with a little hop. I think you would see a whole lot more utilization of the rails, and the game would be more exciting, IMHO.

Lisa

 

[memikey]

Lisa....some good points there........I'd go beyond saying "no jump cues" and say "no jump shots"

 

[MrLucky]

On one of my recent visits to the states I got chatting to a well respected member of this forum about 8 ball. I mentioned that I love the game and I always thought it strange that since most of the worlds recreational player play 8 ball that it wasn't the TV game of choice. I was a little suprised to here that some of the old legends of the game thought that 8 ball wasn't as difficult as 9 ball (or a true test for world class players).

I Don't agree with 9 being more of a challenge than 8 at all! I grew up playing Straight Pool / Eight Ball and Nine Ball with and around some great players. I played 9 for the money and sometimes 8 but now I play predominately 8 Ball and some Straight when a willing and ABLE opponent appears! IMO! with 15 balls, more clusters and more congestion I have always thought 8 presented more challenges for the table read and to get out!