8-ball break

[BeeMan]

Anyone can respond to this, although I would like to hear from BlackJack and Fast Larry, as I have read deeply both your ways of breaking in 9-ball, and the reasons behind.
I am from Sydney, Australia, and probably the most common game would have to be 8-ball.
Just wondering your thoughts on the best break(position of cue ball, contact point on rack, type of hit on cue ball, etc)

Thanks in advance

 

[fast larry]

FL responds

HOW TO BREAK AT 8 BALL This is a bloomin 4 page answer and article, so if you hate reading a long post, move on to the next one for sure and don't read the bloody thing.

GOOD DAY MATE, how's things down under. I'll be in your neck of the woods next month, I am spending two weeks working Malaysia, Indonesia and Indo China. My HQ will be in Sinagapore. I could pop over if somebody wants to see a show. I'd probably do it for a case of Fosters and some shrimp on the barbie. I'm a scuba diver, will be over to the great barrier reef, could drop on down the coast, no problem, no worries. Don't have anything booked in your country now, ask around for me.

Blackjack has been very ill and is now recovering slowly. I hope he does add his comments to mine. He is a wonderful teacher and his posts are so informative and well written. You may not see too much from him until he gets back in the swing of things once more. Here's the 8 ball article: Part one of three parts

HOW TO BE A WINNER AT 8 BALL l of 4 pages By Fast Larry rev I

I am a winner at 8 ball so I do have the qualifications to write this article. This is aimed at the league player, who wants to move up in the rankings and gain respect with his peers. You want to win that division trophy, I have 6 of them, you want to win that city championship, and I have two of them. You want to go to Vegas and play and do well. I took a city championship team as captain to Vegas and ran out 6-0 without missing a ball or giving the opponent a shot. Break, run 3 racks and out, break, safety, run 3 more racks and out. My opponent that day learned from me, 8 ball can be a very unfair game. I have run 8 racks of 8 ball before; I have played this game perfect on a few rare occasions.

I was a league player like you before the APA declared me to be a playing professional and no longer eligible for amateur competition. I spent years in the league. Like you, I am from the inner city, my dad was a teamster, a truck driver, and I am from a blue collar family. I came up in real pool halls like you did. The pool halls I learned to play in looked just like the joint in the Hustler movie. I came up playing with the Fast Eddy, Minnesota Fats and Omaha Fats, Martin Kiaman were my early teachers. I played for money and not for tin cups.
I drink buds, not champagne. My home rooms were Kling and Allen’s and Millers in the basement at 12th street in KCMO.
I was put on the cover of the APA magazine when I was a sl6; I later became a SL 7 for life when I ran those racks in Vegas. When I began to win prize money in pro events, when I began to teach for money, when most of my income was coming from playing pool professionally, when I began to do trick shot shows and tour, I violated my amateur status and the president of the APA graduated me out and proclaimed me to now be a professional player. All of this is for display on my web site www.fastlarrypool.com

Please I am not trying to brag about what I did do in the leagues, what I am trying to say is this, every thing you want to do, I have been there, done that. Listen to me, I have experience in your world, I can and I will help you. You league players are me, I am you, I am not one of these ivory tower teachers or writers who never was one of you, I was. I am not one of those phony teachers in Billiards Digest who can’t run 3 friggin balls. Two of their staff writers can’t. Most of my students are people like you, league players. Fast loves ya, and is now going to help you.

I hope you have seen and read my 4 page post on AZ called I can’t run 3 friggin balls. If you did not like it, read no more, this is in the same mode, it’s the same lesson. If you missed it or it’s been retired, you can read it under my web site www.fastlarrypool.com, go into the link, ask fast, there is a growing collection of instructional articles there for you, one is being added every day, so do keep checking in.
This article is also now on permanent display on the new pool board www.billiards-pool.net, just hit the tutorial section, you will find my work featured there. This section is also open to any pro or teacher, so you may see some other view points coming up soon from other pros. Open up articles submitted by the pros.

I encourage you to read this article and begin to work on the drill; pool is nothing but a 3 ball run out.

I now want you to see 8 ball as nothing but a 3 ball run out. You must now accept your current skill level and now play your game within that arena. If you are not a SL 7, you must stop trying to play like one. You must now stop trying to break and run out, you simply rarely do this, this you must accept. When you try to run the table and you take 5 or 6 balls out of the way of your opponent, his run now becomes twice as easy as yours was. CARDINAL SIN, NEVER RUN 7 IF YOU CANT RUN 8……..Have this tattooed under your eye lids. This is a Fast Larry command. If you don’t want to move up in your rankings in your league, Another Cardinal sin, never run a rack, dog or miss the 7th ball and fall into a safety by accident of course.

Learn to see every run of 8 ball in 3’s. See a 3 ball run, plan it before you begin shooting. If you do nothing in your league but run 3, play safe, run 3 play safe, run 2 and out, you will become a sl6. If you run 5, play safe, run 3 and out you will become a sl7. You do not have to run racks to be ranked high up in your league. You do have to learn how to play smart. YOU ONLY SHOOT THE EASY SHOTS; YOUR OPPONENT GETS TO SHOOT THE HARD SHOTS. You must be consistent on your runs. You must break the balls well and make a ball on every snap.

Imagine a baseball game, we have two equal teams, both get 9 innings to play. Over a period of time, each team will end up winning half of the games played. If my team now gets to play 18 innings and the other team only gets to play 9 innings, with me having twice the opportunity to score, I am now going to win all of the time. You will say this is not fair, yes you are right and that is the way I play you 8 ball. I get twice the innings you do, so you lose most of the time. Who ever said pool is fair, pool is a very unfair game, take 9 ball or rotation as examples. How I do that is simple. Never flip always lag; practice the lag so you always win the lag. Having the first opportunity to strike is vital, and then never turn loose of controlling the game from there on in.

Let’s say I am a 5 or 6, I have a good break, make a ball, can see where running 4 or 5 balls is real easy, not sure I can get out. When I begin to get to that 4th or 5th ball, I am looking for the place where I can shoot and hide. I may flat out miss the 5th ball and try to hook you. If I do it right, cue ball in hand, I run 4 balls and out. You just keep repeating this, run 5, hook, run 3 and out. Just don’t give the other guy a shot. Take the easy stuff, when the hard shot comes up, duck and hide, get cue ball in hand, now you can make that hard shot an easy shot by moving the cue ball up close to it. If you do this, you are getting two innings to score, your opponent is getting none, or at best one with a lousy chance to make a ball or get anything going. You just don’t shoot the hard shot you figure to miss you then do not give him his inning and his chance to make his 5 ball run back on you.
End of part one of three parts.

 

[fast larry]

Re: FL responds

HOW TO BREAK AT 8 BALL This is a bloomin 4 page answer and article, so if you hate reading a long post, move on to the next one for sure and don't read the bloody thing.

Part two of three continued

If you do this; you will then become a 7, even if you don’t ever run a rack. You will beat everyone. When you can have the confidence to make that 5 ball run and then duck, then all you have is the 3 ball out, and that you now have mastered. You sort of drop it on the other guy like gee this 8 ball can be very unfair, do you realize you are only getting one inning to win, if you don’t run the rack, 8 and out, you are losing every game. The only way you can win is run the table when you get a shot. I always tell my opponent that, just in case he missed it. Is that sharking, probably, but when I played, I was not going for any popularity awards; all I wanted to do was beat you flat. Once that one sets in on him, panic sets in on him as well.

OK, you are a SL 3 or 4, use the same strategy, just try and get out in 3 innings. Run 3 and duck, play safe. Cue ball in hand or a shot, run 3 and duck, safe, shot, run 2 and out. 8 ball to you is nothing now but a game of running 3 balls that is your only goal. You run the 3 and deny the opponent a shot. In order to learn how to hide, duck and hook, it would be a cool idea to find a good instructor and take a lesson from him just on this subject alone. Put this method into use, you are winning now all of the time. I am telling you this; you can now dominate your opponents at 8 ball and never run more that 3 friggin balls at a time. You are not Earl Stricklin, you are not a world champion, and you are not a run out player, stop trying to play like one.

Ok, you are going to hear this is dirty pool, no it is not, this is smart pool, the way most league 3’s 4’s and some 5’s play 8 ball is dumb bell 8 ball. You play smart 8 ball, you win, and they lose. Safety play is a legal and honorable part of the game of 8 ball. You just tell them that, you did not write the rule book, you just play by the rule book, if they have any problems with it, don’t bitch to me, write the BCA.

If you roll into Billy Joe Bob’s bar and it’s full of bikers who don’t know the rules, I would cool it there, unless your health insurance is paid up in full. Some of these good ole boys feel people playing dirty pool need a good a** whipping. Let this be a warning to you. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, when in Billy Joe Bobs, you play like the locals do and by their friggin rules, they never heard of your rule book and don’t care if you have it in your case. They will take your rule book and put it where the sun doesn’t shine bubba.

For this method to work, you must practice and win the lag. You must develop a good solid break that makes a ball most of the time. You must develop a fine safety game. You must master 3 ball runs. You stop even trying to run 8 balls; all you do is try to run 3 balls and duck. Learn this well, then any SL 2 or 3 can beat any sl7 with a little luck and a bad roll or two on him. When I was team captain, any time any 7 came up, I put my sl2 lady on him with this strategy, and she took several down.

This is how you now practice 8 ball, playing your self, playing a safe game, running 3 and hiding. What you are now doing is practicing running 8 and you never do and just screw it up and let the other guy run out on you.

I did not like becoming a 7 in the league, you get fed a lot of female sl2’s, and they are very dangerous and can beat you. I felt the way to be a 7 is come out and just hammer the opponent without mercy, run a couple of racks on them and scare them to death, then they fold early. Women seem to expect you to go easy on them, I hammered them even harder than I would a guy, it upsets them, and then they lose. Playing pool in competition is not about being nice to people or helping them look good, it is about winning and winning means running over the opponent and showing them no mercy or quarter. You are giving up a ton of spot to these lower ranked players; you cannot afford to be nice to them. Just crush them early. If I am playing a lower ranked SL, I break the on the head ball wide open and just try and run out every rack. They can never run out on me if I keep them sitting in the chair so what I have to lose doing that. The best defense against these people is a great offense. The top players will mount a come back and usually make a strong come back. That is why it’s vital to get the lead early and get out front at least a couple games on them. On the lower ranked players once I get ahead of them or ran a rack or two on them they rarely put on any serious charge. They fold faster than a $2.00 blue light special Kmart card table.

My teacher Minnesota Fats taught me to break off of the rail and right down the middle of the table. This gives you the best spread and a great run out table, but you don’t always make a ball. If you are playing a 6 or 7 in the leagues, he just ran out on you. I like to go one diamond left of center. If you see my video tape I sell on my web site, I made 7 balls on the snap from that position. I begin there and then move a little left or right until I find the spot where it begins to work. For me, I go snap, boom boom; I make 2 balls on the break just about every time. I always move up table past the side pockets at least 7 or 8 balls, so they are evenly spread all over the table and no two balls are touching. When you break them as good as I do, any body can run out. I try and make the cue ball bounce straight back up table just past the side pockets about a diamond, letting it stop just below the sides gets it kicked in the sides to scratch a lot. I cue just below center using 6:00 center English, or no English. I leave 25% of my power in my back pocket, I hit them hard, but with control, accuracy not power is the key.

I do not have one way to play, every skill level and opponent, I play different, what ever it takes to get them off of their rhythm, to rattle them, and I do. I don’t shark, but there are things you can do that does upset the other guy and they are legal. You will figure them out and use them.

Playing an opponent that is equal to me, another 7, or a 7 better than me, I figure just come out with no fear and play fast and loose and just freewheel on the guy. I want to come out smokin and get hotter than a Puerto Rican new credit card. I got that go right at them concept from Vinnie of Green Bay and Attila the Hun, just attack without mercy and keep attacking until you win.

I win the lag, break wide open hitting my cue ball on the one ball and try and run a couple of racks in a row. I want to jump out 2-0. Getting out 2-0 wins the majority of your matches if you play them smart. I may do the open break the third time, If I am breaking great and full of confidence and the table and balls are working and potting balls on the break. I am down there on every rack closely inspecting the rack to insure the guy does not slug rack me to stop my run. What I am afraid of here is going to the well to many times, breaking wide open and not making a ball and the guy runs out on me, he then breaks, runs out again and my early lead is gone and he now has the offense and confidence going on his side. I want to prevent him from making his charge back.

On the 3rd or 4th rack, I will switch to the side break, hitting the ball below the one ball. I used to pot the 8 ball called in the right side pocket l in 7 snaps. I can’t tell you how many 8 ball matches I have had where I was on the hill and ended the match with the 8 on the break win. I argued with the BCA 10 years ago on this. They are saying it’s a luck shot, I am saying if I can make it l in 7 in the same pocket and consistently park it and send it heading towards that same pocket, it is not a luck shot, it is a skill shot and the win should be the reward. By their standards I told them when you break and make and usually slop in the 9 ball on the break at that game, spot it up and say it is not a win. They call that a win, go figger. A skill shot is luck, a luck shot is skill, the BCA is full of baloney on this, and they don’t have a clue. The side break you really need to take a lesson on, it would be just too hard to describe to you what makes it work. It’s not soft but not hard, it’s this medium force that works. You miss the head one ball barely and try to hit the 2nd ball down as full as possible with inside draw to pull the cue ball over into the long rail and have it go back into the rack for a 2nd time. If you use follow you invite a scratch in to the corner pocket.

I will be filming and producing several DVD’s on a variety of instructional basics and one of them is going to be on how I break to win. You will have it by spring. I will also be writing several books; once again one will be ready by spring also. Then you can read how, study diagrams, and then see it come alive on TV in high quality DVD format.
My first offering is going to be 3 DVD’s on 3 basics and lessons. I can’t tell you what the other two are going to be, it’s a secret, I don’t want any one to know that I am finally going to sing like a canary on how to draw the ball finally. I have a number of secrets I have kept hidden for long enough.

End of part two of three

 

[fast larry]

Re: Re: FL responds

HOW TO BREAK AT 8 BALL This is a bloomin 4 page answer and article, so if you hate reading a long post, move on to the next one for sure and don't read the bloody thing.

Part three of three continued

I won’t play you if I can’t make the 8 and win in a casual or gambling game. In the leagues, you are sometimes trapped into some dumb rules written by people in ivory towers who can’t run 3 friggin balls and are totally out of touch with the main line game and players. They put up these committees of expert PhD’s and most of these people play billiards and never play 8 ball, or have never played in a league. That is who writes your BCA rule book. The APA rule book is written for real players by real players. Half of the matches I played, well over half, I made a 8 ball on the break, it was like a free game, it’s a spot the opponent can’t fade, and it had a devastating effect on him and his moral.

The other nice thing about the side break is it usually makes a ball on the break so I retain control of the table. The rack never spreads out really well, because to make the 8 in the side, you must hit the rack what I call medium soft, to produce that 2nd kick that pushes the 8 out of the stack. What I am looking for is to produce a non run out table. I don’t mind if the rack is a little scrambled up, this is to my advantage. I am an old straight pool player, wading into clusters and moving stuff around is what that game is all about. Most of these racks I can get out from but my younger opponent with less experience in this area cannot. This was the Hugh secret of a former APA national champion, his name was Bobby Stovall, and he could open and run 3 racks on you, then freeze you out cold. Every time I would play the guy I would open with 2 racks run and he would put 3 back on me. Next time I would open and run 3 racks in a row and he would run 4 back on top of me. There are some 7’s running around God could not beat.

On the softer side break if I don’t make a ball on the break, the good news is my opponent also cannot get out and put a big run back on me. If you take two 8 ball players of exact ability, let them play for a week, they will split their matches 50/50. Let one of them learn and get good at straight pool, he will then dominate the other guy from that point on.
If you want to be a top 8 ball player, learn straight pool. It buys you all kinds of cool tools you can use. Now when you see a cluster, you don’t have to duck, you can wade into it and move them into the open table. You can play safety better; you can move balls around into better spots. You can bump your opponent’s balls into rails or into clusters that will kill his run out. You are now playing 8 ball like a butcher in a meat processing shop; you have a cleaver in your hands. Learn to play straight, you will now play 8 ball like you are a brain surgeon with a scalpel in your hand, you will have touch, finesse and total control over the table and your opponent.

OK, call me chicken, cluck cluck, I am protecting my lead, preventing him from scoring, I just call that smart. I run 4 or 5, duck, lay him to waste with a cool safety, cb in hand, 3 and out, score 3-0. I’ll then play the last 3 or 4 games that way, side break, scramble rack, frustrate this poor guy so he’s tearing his hair out. I am not a lot of fun to play with, those who do can’t believe that they never get a shot, they think I am lucky, no it’s because I am good. If somehow the guy does catch up or goes ahead, then I will switch strategy and go back to the open break and try to run out the set and put him away.

In the Hustler movie Minnesota Fats misses and leaves nothing, Fast Eddy comes up scratching his head saying when you miss Fat man, you sure don’t leave much. Fats said, Eddy, that’s what the game is all about. Well said Fats that is what this article is all about. Thank you Fats, you taught me well.

Get out 2-0, then sit on it and protect it, don’t let the guy have a chance to catch up. For those of you who will criticize this method it was taught to me also by Mike Sigel, this was his great secret how he won 100 pro tour events and became one of the top 5 greatest players of all time, get out front early, then hook em to death, by the way, his handle is Captain Hook. Mike said the big secret is to deny them the chance to catch up. You get out ahead first, stay out ahead, they can never catch up and they just run out of time and the match ends with you winning. Most do not know how or why they lost. Mike Sigel is now ranked as the #5 greatest player of all time so if you know my method here, you are also knocking a couple of real legends as well.

Know when to hold em, know when to fold em, card playing advice you can take to the pool table, know when to shoot, know when to duck. You are now 100% offense trying to run out every rack of 8 balls and you are not a top ranked 7, you sir, are a fool. You can win so many more of your matches if you will just learn how to play smart. You must learn to blend in your game offense and defense and play shots by percentages of your ability to make them. You just must be totally realistic with your self about what your run abilities are and don’t push that envelop.

You want to be shooting only 70% and better shots that are easy and leaving your opponent 10% very hard shots. Deny him a chance to score. You are not going to make a lot of friends playing this way, but you are going to own every one around you from now on, so can you live with that? Winning pool is not about winning friends, winning pool is about crushing your opponent. After the match, take him to the bar and buy him a couple of beers and show him what a square guy you really are. At the table dudes, no mercy, off with his head.
This article will be soon posted on my web site and in www.billiards-pool.net in the tutorial section so when this thread goes away, it will be on file for your review forever. Fast Larry Guninger l of 4 pages this article is copy writed, it can only be used with permission from the author.
This is the end of part three of three.

 

[nbc]

Fast... not dropping by the Philippines anymore?

nbc

 

[fast larry]

fl world tour

Fast... not dropping by the Philippines anymore?

nbc

On No, I would love to come in. I don't have anything booked there, one guy was to look around and never got back to me. The plan now is I fly out of Japan on Dec 10th and fly direct to Singapore so it looks like I wave hey out the window to you when I go by. Find a gig for me and I'll divert in for a day or two.

 

[BeeMan]

Hey Fast, thanks for the extremely informative reply, although the only time I have heard "shrimp on the barbie", is in Dumb & Dumber, hehe.

I have a local comp on tomorrow night, so I'll put your knowledge to use.

However, I mostly play in local comps, held in pubs and so forth, where the rules are local, and some of the KEY international rules, such as ball in hand, are not put in use:some just hand over 2 shots, and some not even that(like the comp tomorrow), and a scratch returns cueball to behind headstring.

And also, if you sink both sets of balls on the break, you take whatever went down first, and hand the table over to your opponent. Any suggestions?

With the reward for laying a good safety greatly reduced by this, do you still recommend the same strategy? or would you make any tweaks??
Thanks

 

[fast larry]

FL RESPONDS

Hey Fast, thanks for the extremely informative reply, although the only time I have heard "shrimp on the barbie", is in Dumb & Dumber, hehe.

I have a local comp on tomorrow night, so I'll put your knowledge to use.

However, I mostly play in local comps, held in pubs and so forth, where the rules are local, and some of the KEY international rules, such as ball in hand, are not put in use:some just hand over 2 shots, and some not even that(like the comp tomorrow), and a scratch returns cueball to behind headstring.

And also, if you sink both sets of balls on the break, you take whatever went down first, and hand the table over to your opponent. Any suggestions?

With the reward for laying a good safety greatly reduced by this, do you still recommend the same strategy? or would you make any tweaks??

Hi this is Fast
Thanks

Learn to innovate, adjust, think, be smart and aggressive, know when to run and hide.

Not every table will have a spot or a place to duck and hide, so this stradegy does not work every time, just some of the times. In such a case you might then try and run out and hope you make it. This stradegy works, but a smart old timer who's been around will adjust to it. You have a general game plan, then when it falls apart, you innovate from there. You play every opponent and every game different, no two will ever be exactly the same. The purpose of my article was to get you thinking, and thinking about how you play and plan out your runs in a different more intelligent manner. Come back and let me know if it has any results, it has with others I have taught this to in the past.

 

[Andy Segal]

I agree with Larry. I used to play in the Pro 8-Ball event at the Riviera when Camel used to do it. You would be surprised how many of the 'top' pros don't know that you can't just try to run out all of the time. You have to manuver the balls around until you see the out. Like Larry said, once you are at the point where you can run 8 balls in any order (except for the 8 of course), just move them around, maybe even making some of your opponents balls. Keep some of his tied up, or block the pockets with your balls. He will start making his balls and clearing them out of the way for you. Eventually, you will have a shot where you see an out and then you go for it. Of course, if you see an out right after the break, do it. I like shooting rather than ducking, but 8-ball is a ducking man's game. The beginning is much more important than you might think. Unless I see myself running out and it looke like an 80% or better chance of success, I don't even make one ball (except one just to define which group I am) until I can run out.

I also agree with Larry that lower ranked players shouldn't try to run out. Just make a few balls and work on your game. If you get up against a top player, you will find that he will be using the strategy that Larry put forth and I have summarized above. If that happens, just try your best. If you get up against a top player who just likes to shoot and run out, chances are he or she will leave you shots when you have all 7 of your balls on the table and they only have 1 or 2. At that point, do exactly like Larry said. Try to run a few balls, and then play safe. Keep it up and eventually you will be beating these better players.

Regarding the break, I have never believed in the side break where you try to make the 8-ball. That is too much luck. True it does go in that direction sometimes, but with all 15 balls flying around the table, the chances are very good that it will not be made. When you get to the point where you can run out pretty good, it is better to get a good spread and make a ball (by hitting the top ball square). The chances that you make a ball and run out will be far greater than the chances that you make the 8-ball. Even assuming the 1 in 7 stat that Larry says (which I think is a little suspect in my opinion), at the top level, you will break and run out more often than 1 in 7. However, the 8 on the break stat is probably much more than 1 in 7 so that just makes this point much stronger.

In order to improve your break, you should not blast them. Take Larry's advice to only use about 80% power. However, starting out, you want to use only about 50% power. Concentrate on hitting the head ball square. It doesn't matter where you break from. Every table will have a 'sweet spot' where balls tend to go in. Just make sure you hit the top ball full in the fact from wherever you put the cue ball. Hit it at 50% power for a while and when you get good at hitting the top ball square, slowly increase your power until you are back up to hitting it hard (80% max). You want to do as Larry said - hit the top bal lsquare and have the cue ball come back around the center of the table. That will give you the most shots, much more than if the cue ball were near one of the cushions.

Good luck with your game.

Andy

 

[Perk]

Regarding the break, I have never believed in the side break where you try to make the 8-ball. That is too much luck. True it does go in that direction sometimes, but with all 15 balls flying around the table, the chances are very good that it will not be made. When you get to the point where you can run out pretty good, it is better to get a good spread and make a ball (by hitting the top ball square). The chances that you make a ball and run out will be far greater than the chances that you make the 8-ball. Even assuming the 1 in 7 stat that Larry says (which I think is a little suspect in my opinion), at the top level, you will break and run out more often than 1 in 7. However, the 8 on the break stat is probably much more than 1 in 7 so that just makes this point much stronger.

I agree regarding the 1 in 7 stat, but I think the side break is the only way to go if you are playing against equal if not better competition. I break from the side, almost always make a ball, sometimes the 8, but more importantly my CB normally is controlled within the balls at the far end of the table. With a table that isnt spread as well as a spread break, I can choose what I want, then decide on a hunt and duck process. Moving balls early and having control of a clustered table will keep you in command of the safety games. IMO

A spread break can cut your throat alot quicker than the side break. Scratching and not potting balls can lead to the oncomming player to runout to quick.

I like tables where both players can get to the table (unless I am running out), so I take my chances with a side break, almost guaranteeing myself a good chance at the table.

 

[fast larry]

I agree regarding the 1 in 7 stat, but I think the side break is the only way to go if you are playing against equal if not better competition. I break from the side, almost always make a ball, sometimes the 8, but more importantly my CB normally is controlled within the balls at the far end of the table. With a table that isnt spread as well as a spread break, I can choose what I want, then decide on a hunt and duck process. Moving balls early and having control of a clustered table will keep you in command of the safety games. IMO

A spread break can cut your throat alot quicker than the side break. Scratching and not potting balls can lead to the oncomming player to runout to quick.

I like tables where both players can get to the table (unless I am running out), so I take my chances with a side break, almost guaranteeing myself a good chance at the table.

Let me clear this up, if you could make the 8 ball on the snap 1 in 7, control it, tell me you would not use this weapon. I can and I do. Will the average league player be able to do the same, no, I have breaking skills he will never achieve. Will that same guy ever run balls like Mike Sigel, no for that same reason. Yes, do believe I was making the 8 in the same side pocket 1 in 7, so you can know, with practice and skill, you too can achieve this if you work at it.

I studied 100 accustat tapes looking for things and what I saw in world class PBT tourney play was how few times the pro's made the 9 on the snap. I think is like 1 in 30. When I get on a roll I am 1 in 5, always 1 in 10. It is not uncommon for me to make the 9 on the snap twice in a row. Drop 4 out of 10 snaps, I do this now and then. I used to make 5 balls on the snap 5 times a day. I had breaking skills others did not have. Please believe me, this is not to brag, that is not the intent of this. The intent is to inform you what can be done. What is available if you search for it and then find it like I did. It took me many years to find it,
God Bless you too in your search for these inside secrets of the game.

 

[fast larry]

I agree regarding the 1 in 7 stat, but I think the side break is the only way to go if you are playing against equal if not better competition. I break from the side, almost always make a ball, sometimes the 8, but more importantly my CB normally is controlled within the balls at the far end of the table. With a table that isnt spread as well as a spread break, I can choose what I want, then decide on a hunt and duck process. Moving balls early and having control of a clustered table will keep you in command of the safety games. IMO

A spread break can cut your throat alot quicker than the side break. Scratching and not potting balls can lead to the oncomming player to runout to quick.

I like tables where both players can get to the table (unless I am running out), so I take my chances with a side break, almost guaranteeing myself a good chance at the table.

Fast Replies, Yes, that is I think what I was trying to say. Sometimes I get confused inside my own rhetoric. If I am breaking strong with confidence and the table is giving up balls on the snap, I use the blast and run out method. You noticed I use caution, there is a point where I don't push it, I chicken out, grab my success and run and then go to the side break to control the match. I shoot crap the same way, if you try to win every toss and let it ride, you go home broke. There is a point you have to grab the loot and get off the roll. You know if you stay on it, a losing roll is coming soon. Same on the break. It's a gamblers instinct you just develop over time, a 6th sense thing.

If I am not breaking well or the table is not friendly, then I will use only the side break. One thing I did not go into and perhaps somebody else can pick it up and expand on this. This break stradegy thing does change from table to table. It is also totally different if you are playing on a brand new gold crown 4 with new 860 opposed to a 7' bar box table from hell with cheap slow house cloth. There are so many variables which is why I said, every table, every opponent should have a different game plan.

 

[8ballbanger]

Hey Fast, thanks for the extremely informative reply, although the only time I have heard "shrimp on the barbie", is in Dumb & Dumber, hehe.

I have a local comp on tomorrow night, so I'll put your knowledge to use.

However, I mostly play in local comps, held in pubs and so forth, where the rules are local, and some of the KEY international rules, such as ball in hand, are not put in use:some just hand over 2 shots, and some not even that(like the comp tomorrow), and a scratch returns cueball to behind headstring.

And also, if you sink both sets of balls on the break, you take whatever went down first, and hand the table over to your opponent. Any suggestions?

With the reward for laying a good safety greatly reduced by this, do you still recommend the same strategy? or would you make any tweaks??
Thanks

Hey BeeMan,

You might find this page handy:

http://www.pubpool.net/WhatsOn/whats_on_Time.asp

It's a list of Sydney pub comps along with some rules they use. The two most useful are "8 ball" which indicates international 8 ball rules and own cue/pub cue giving you some idea of the level of comp. Note the list is not perfect, the comp at castle hill tavern should be marked as 8 ball.

Personally, I don't go into the ones marked "pub cue only" cause they are usually geared towards locals boosted with beer and quite often label someone who regularly finishes in two visits as devil spawn. However, as I used to play in these here is my advise. Be careful playing safeties to this crowd, make them look like missed shots or you will make enemies. Never run the rack if you want to play in the comp again. If you are playing someone you know won't run the table, give them the break (its just too random under common sydney pub rules), it might give them a chance to break up the clusters too. If you do get the break, leave clusters by shooting hard and clipping the head ball rather than hitting it head on. This will make it look like you tried to break them hard but were just unlucky they didn't split nicely. From here you will have a few visits to the table concerning cluster management, break your balls out while making it look like you are going for banks and just missing. Your opponent will probably knock a couple of balls in that were blocking your at the same time. In comps that don't allow you to follow your own ball in after sinking an opponents, get your balls hanging in the pockets in front the opponents balls. This gives you a guarentee that they won't get out in front of you.

Out of the remaining "use your own cue" comps, I preference the international 8 ball ones cause anything goes there (full safety/strategy). The ones at "the tollgate" are also high caliber affairs, as is sometimes the castle hill tav on (though its gone downhill since their new tables came in). Also special comps at the family inn are usually 8ball, but they are not held regularly, though they attract some of our top players, eg Lawler, Budd, Tillman, Hok, etc.

Hope this helps - 8 ball banger.

 

[UWPoolGod1]

Thats funny...$100+case of beer

 

[locki]

i havent read from any of the posts here yet, but when im breaking an 8-ball rack...i dont hit the first ball, rather, id hit the side of the triangle, any of those balls, when hit, would definitely scatter the balls...

 

[King Cueball]

The 8-ball break can be hit with the apex ball, or any of the back to balls. alot of people shoot the balls to the side to get the 8ball rolling.

 

[ajrack]

BEE MAN...
I travel to Melbourne and Perth (seldom go to Sydney) almost every year and play in the local comps often...
because you use the small 1 7/8" cue ball and the object balls are 2"...I have found that the best overall break on your tables is...
place the cue ball at about the edge of the " D" and then aim to hit the head ball full from where you place the cue ball....the corner ball often goes around to the corner pocket near where you break from...

note*** there is an australian snooker site
www.absc.com.au

Neil Robertson from Victoria, just won the "Worlds (under 21)
Snooker Championship" and Aaron Mahonney (also from Victoria) just won the Australian Snooker Championship..
By the way, they both like to play "Yankee" one pocket!!!

 

[BeeMan]

Yeah, thats the position that I usually break from ajrack.
Is there a reason for not coming to Sydney?

 

[ajrack]

Not really,
I do not know anyone in Sydney at the moment , a friend who I knew has moved to Perth. In Melbourne I live on a farm just outside of town with some friends and they also own a pool room...not a bad place to hang out!

ajrack@yahoo.com

 

[fast larry]

Thats funny...$100+case of beer

Coming down for a case of Fosters and a couple of shrimp on the barbie was of course a joke. My advertised price is now all over the far east and it is a little more than a case of beer. Not much, but some. If you are wanting a quote and want to see me show up, you do have to pay me a show fee and I assume after the show we show up at your place and eat the shrimp and drink the fosters. If you want a show quote in the Far East for any booking in Mid December when I will be there send that to my email in Atlanta at fastlarry@bellsouth.net They will forward it to me and we will respond to you from my new HQ in Singapore.

May God bless and peace be with you. May the wind be always on your back and all 9 balls fall. VENI VIDI VICI, OMNIA VINCIT AMOR. Latin for “I came, I saw, I conquered, love conquerors all.
“Fast Larry” Guninger
For pics or data go into my web site Just put your mouse cursor over the below underlined link and left click to open this web site, or hold down your ctrl key on your key board and hit left click of your mouse at the same time to see it open. http://www.fastlarrypool.com