Partly not knowing the rule, but also for introducing the pointless distraction because of that lack of knowledge. In the particular case I referred to, there is only one obvious call on the shot, and no other call was made. But it would only have been a warning.
I think that in a general sense, failure to know the rules is unsportsmanlike conduct. It shows a lack of respect for the game.
To answer the original question, your opponent would have had to raise his question before the shot. I think you did the right thing by offering to call all shots, because what's obvious to you could simply be different from what's obvious to your opponent. The only way to absolutely avoid confusion is to call every shot. Ball and pocket.
I've seen more people lately take liberties with this rule than I care to remember. (yes, mostly nits) At which point does a "kiss" become a "carom?" Take these two end game scenarios, for example.
The first page is a "big pocket" situation and you might choose to hold your cue ball up for the 8. You might undercut the 5 ball a little bit on accident because you're worried about hooking yourself on the 14, and that might cause the 5 to "kiss" the 9 on the way in.
Should that be different from the situation on page 2, where you play the 5 ball off the 9 to clear the way for the 4 ball?
It's essentially the same shot, and could very much look the same to an observer. However, by my understanding of the definitions, one is clearly a kiss and the other is clearly a carom. Do you need to call both? Where do you draw the line?
It takes a true nit to call something like that, but by the rules, could they?
You've misunderstood the definitions. A kiss and a carom are the same thing. And under World Standardized Rules concerning Call Shot, one only needs to call the 5-ball into the corner pocket. And since it is a kiss/carom shot, most people would suggest to call the 5-ball into the corner pocket, regardless of how obvious it is because it's not a straight in shot.
Answer would be no, you only call ball and pocket. 5 ball is obviously going in corner pocket on both scenarios. No kisses or caroms need be called.Hope this helps.
I don't know if you meant it to but that reads as if you are saying he needed to call the 5 and the pocket in those two examples of potting the 5ball.......but the BCA League Rules as regards those two examples doesn't require him to call anything at all.
The only way he would have needed to call the 5 and the pocket in either of those examples diagrammed would have been if his opponent had queried his ball and pocket intention before the stroke, which he didn't.
If the examples had been different and had involved a kick, bank or combination, the published rules would then have required him to call ball and pocket irrespective of whether his opponent queried his intention or not and if he didn't call ball and pocket the opponent (nit or otherwise) would have been entitled under the rules to claim the pot was illegal. The shooters turn is over and it would be the opponents turn to shoot.
Thems the rules.........but obviously got to agree with Spider re his general comments, to put the above in realistic perspective
As regards when does a kiss become a carom the answer is "never". A kiss involves the cue ball making first contact with the called object ball which then contacts another ball. A carom involves the cue ball making first contact with a ball other than the called object ball and then contacting the object ball.
good point. I was trying to think of a scenario that would put two nearly identical shots together, but that was the best i could come up with. I guess my point was that I've seen people take liberties with that rule, and with terminology for that matter...always when they are losing...and always when it will benefit them.
The people I play with on any consistent basis are all honest enough to call fouls, or give up the table when appropriate. I guess that's because I have no desire to play with someone who doesn't, but I think anyone with respect for their opponent or the game would do it in a heart beat.
You've misunderstood the definitions. A kiss and a carom are the same thing. And under World Standardized Rules concerning Call Shot, one only needs to call the 5-ball into the corner pocket. And since it is a kiss/carom shot, most people would suggest to call the 5-ball into the corner pocket, regardless of how obvious it is because it's not a straight in shot.
BCA League Rules are different from World Standardized Rules in this respect Fred. A kiss and a carom are certainly not defined in BCA League Rules as being "the same thing" although they are given the same status in those rules in respect of call shot rule aspects in the sense that the mere fact a shot involves a kiss or a carom doesn't make it necessary to call ball and pocket for that shot. However on the other hand the involvement of a bank, kick or combination in a shot is treated quite differently by the rules wording and any of these do always make it necessary for the shooter to call ball and pocket for such a shot.
For the record a kiss is actually defined in BCA League Rules as when the ball to be pocketed glances off another object ball before being pocketed and a carom is defined as any shot in which the cue ball, before contacting the ball to be pocketed, first contacts one or more other balls.
Well spotted spoons. Got two screens open for posting stuff on two different sites at same time and writing a survey report on the side as well. No good at multi tasking obviously as don't even remember typing that bit about respotting and it's obviously rubbish, sorry.
Yes of course all illegal balls stay down in 8 ball. I'll edit that bit of the post so as not to mislead others
no worries. I just thought they'd changed the rule or something.
I know by APA rules, balls knocked off the table are spotted, but don't result in a foul. That can actually make for a pretty awesome safety. I've seen it done by accident, but it ended up costing the person the match.
Nothing like giving the advantage to the weaker player.
In the BCA Rule book (downloadable) from the PLAYBCA website says the following:
1.17 Calling Ball and Pocket (AR)
1. This rule applies only to games designated by specific game rules as Call Shot games. You must designate the called ball and the called pocket before each shot. The designation may be made verbally or by gesture. You do not have to call obvious shots. You do not need to indicate incidental kisses and caroms, or incidental cushion contacts that do not constitute bank shots or kick shots.
8-BALL
2.1 The Game
8-Ball is a call shot game played with a cue ball and fifteen object balls numbered 1 through 15. Each player or team has a group of seven balls: the solid colored balls numbered 1 through 7, or the striped balls numbered 9 through 15. The 8-ball is the game winning ball. The object of the game is for you to pocket your entire group of balls, and then pocket the 8-ball.
Of course this tells me you should call all shots,whether obvious or not, because 8-ball is a call shot game. That alone should remove any doubt.
On a side note I don't understand why they left the part, "You do not have to call obvious shots". Seems kind of contradictory........
i had a tournament losing (for me) situation with this a few years back.
ok, my opponent is snookered on his last ball in 8 ball. his ball is close to a corner, i sit back and say nothing (yes i admit that part) and he kicks his ball strait in the corner.... you know, after hitting the rail and the ob was kinda near the rail.
i jumped up and said you didn't call that, he said, "it was obvious" i said, you just kicked a ball in, that isn't really obvious....... BUT here is the important point and my argument (which i lost in this place, but i was still right)......
IF A GUY DOES NOT CALL HIS POCKET ON A KICK LIKE THIS, SO YOU SEE WHAT THIS OPENS UP TO HIM IF HE MAKES THE BALL??? IF HE MAKES IT AND THE CB FLIES AROUND AND ENDS UP CORNER HOOKED ON ALL BALLS HE CAN SAY, WELL, I DIDNT CALL THAT... YOUR SHOT. AND IF HE KICKS IT IN AND ENDS UP STRAIT IN ON THE 8 (this is what happened in my game), he can say "well, that was the obvious pocket, my shot" ..... you must call the pocket, a player CANT leave his options open after pocketing the ball.
Last year the BCA implemented a new rule - all banks and combos HAD to be called - on all balls.
Here is a copy from pages v and vi of the BCA Rule Book:
Remember that your opponent has the right to know what you are doing while you are at the table. If you don't want to stop and answer questions, you can prevent that by communicating freely and clearly.
As the person in the chair, you must remember that while you have the right to know what the shooter is attempting, you cannot interrupt them after they are down on a shot. If you sense a situation developing in which you might have a question, try to ask it early. At the same time, remember that you cannot use the requirement of communication in an unsportsmanlike manner. You should know what a clearly obvious shot is. Do not ask unnecessary questions in such a situation.
Be sure to remember the absolute requirement that, in call shot games, bank, kick, and combination shots must be called. There are no exceptions under any circumstances, regardless of how "obvious" the shot may appear. The rules concerning communicating safety play have also been clarified.
Good communication is simply good sportsmanship, which is required of all players. Please practice it faithfully and consistently. It will make the game more enjoyable for all of us.
i had a tournament losing (for me) situation with this a few years back.
ok, my opponent is snookered on his last ball in 8 ball. his ball is close to a corner, i sit back and say nothing (yes i admit that part) and he kicks his ball strait in the corner.... you know, after hitting the rail and the ob was kinda near the rail.
i jumped up and said you didn't call that, he said, "it was obvious" i said, you just kicked a ball in, that isn't really obvious....... BUT here is the important point and my argument (which i lost in this place, but i was still right)......
IF A GUY DOES NOT CALL HIS POCKET ON A KICK LIKE THIS, SO YOU SEE WHAT THIS OPENS UP TO HIM IF HE MAKES THE BALL??? IF HE MAKES IT AND THE CB FLIES AROUND AND ENDS UP CORNER HOOKED ON ALL BALLS HE CAN SAY, WELL, I DIDNT CALL THAT... YOUR SHOT. AND IF HE KICKS IT IN AND ENDS UP STRAIT IN ON THE 8 (this is what happened in my game), he can say "well, that was the obvious pocket, my shot" ..... you must call the pocket, a player CANT leave his options open after pocketing the ball.
While the 8-ball should always be called I don't believe his shot would be considered a KICK shot. Also in the BCAPL rule book. Note the parts about incidental contact....
Bank Shot
A shot in which the called ball, before being pocketed, contacts one or more cushions attached to a rail not adjacent to the called pocket. Incidental contact with a cushion attached to a rail adjacent to a called pocket does not constitute a bank shot.
Kick Shot
A shot in which the cue ball, before contacting the called ball, contacts one or more cushions attached to a rail not adjacent to the called pocket. Incidental contact with a cushion attached to a rail adjacent to a called pocket does not constitute a kick shot.
BCA League Rules are different from World Standardized Rules in this respect Fred. A kiss and a carom are certainly not defined in BCA League Rules as being "the same thing" although they are given the same status in those rules in respect of call shot rule aspects in the sense that the mere fact a shot involves a kiss or a carom doesn't make it necessary to call ball and pocket for that shot. However on the other hand the involvement of a bank, kick or combination in a shot is treated quite differently by the rules wording and any of these do always make it necessary for the shooter to call ball and pocket for such a shot.
For the record a kiss is actually defined in BCA League Rules as when the ball to be pocketed glances off another object ball before being pocketed and a carom is defined as any shot in which the cue ball, before contacting the ball to be pocketed, first contacts one or more other balls.
I'm sorry that you're confused. LOL!!! Just kidding. You're talking about the definitions in the BCA rulebook of Kiss vs. Carom Shot. But, that's just misleading, and those of us who know a bit more about billiard history raise our collective eyebrows. Those definitions are just for newbies.
In the context of the Cuetable post that you and I are responding to (not the OP), the poster (spoons) shows two pages. I trust you actually saw both pages? On page one he thinks he shows the 5-ball "kissing" off the 9-ball, by his words "accidentally." The second page he thinks he is showing the 5-ball "caroming" off the 9-ball "on purpose." This is what I am responding to. Kiss and carom are the same, in this context. And certainly in any context prior to anhy misleadind BCA league definitions, an object ball caroming off another ball is the same as that object ball kissing off that object ball. "Caroming" has never been restricted to the cueball only. I don't know why the BCA definition would suggest otherwise. In fact, I don't think it really is.
I'm sorry that you're confused. LOL!!! Just kidding. You're talking about the definitions in the BCA rulebook of Kiss vs. Carom Shot. But, that's just misleading, and those of us who know a bit more about billiard history raise our collective eyebrows. Those definitions are just for newbies
Well forgive me for referring to the BCA league Rules and the BCA League Rules definitions in the context of a question and discussion about the BCA League Rules and definitions (including spoons' cuetable post which was also made in the context of that discussion!)
In the context of the Cuetable post that you and I are responding to (not the OP), the poster (spoons) shows two pages. I trust you actually saw both pages? On page one he thinks he shows the 5-ball "kissing" off the 9-ball, by his words "accidentally." The second page he thinks he is showing the 5-ball "caroming" off the 9-ball "on purpose." This is what I am responding to. Kiss and carom are the same, in this context. And certainly in any context prior to anhy misleadind BCA league definitions, an object ball caroming off another ball is the same as that object ball kissing off that object ball. "Caroming" has never been restricted to the cueball only.
Yes I saw both pages and yes of course I know what a more popular wider definition of a carom would be. As regards me knowing as much about history that may or may not be true but will remind you that our ancestors in Uk were 'caroming' on billiard tables while your predecessors in USA were smoking peace pipes with people called Geronimo and sometimes in the morning I feel old enough to have been there
I don't know why the BCA definition would suggest otherwise. In fact, I don't think it really is
Don't understand. We don't really need to know why. What do you mean you don't think it is? Are you saying you don't think the published BCA rules definition of a carom is the actual intended BCA rules definition of a carom? If that is correct it would I agree obviously put a whole different light on it.
Maybe that should read - Fred.....knows the definitions inside out for sure, but surely also knows that he would find it difficult to get any joy in any kind of BCA League Rules disagreement with his opponent by going to the rule book and arguing that the published BCA League Rules aren't the actual intended BCA League Rules
I do know exactly what you mean Fred and this post is not intended to be too serious .......but surely until somebody changes the rule book the definitions of kiss and carom in there ARE the relevant BCA definitions and they apply to everyone playing in an event being held to BCA League Rules, not just the newbies?
The most important thing being discussed is of course not the definitions of kiss/carom but the fact that in both spoons' examples absolutely no advance call of ball and pocket is required under the published BCA League Rules, unless his opponent asks him in advance to clarify his intention........and on that I'm sure we agree 100%. Thanks.
In the BCA Rule book (downloadable) from the PLAYBCA website says the following:
1.17 Calling Ball and Pocket (AR)
1. This rule applies only to games designated by specific game rules as Call Shot games. You must designate the called ball and the called pocket before each shot. The designation may be made verbally or by gesture. You do not have to call obvious shots. You do not need to indicate incidental kisses and caroms, or incidental cushion contacts that do not constitute bank shots or kick shots.
8-BALL
2.1 The Game
8-Ball is a call shot game played with a cue ball and fifteen object balls numbered 1 through 15. Each player or team has a group of seven balls: the solid colored balls numbered 1 through 7, or the striped balls numbered 9 through 15. The 8-ball is the game winning ball. The object of the game is for you to pocket your entire group of balls, and then pocket the 8-ball.
Of course this tells me you should call all shots,whether obvious or not, because 8-ball is a call shot game. That alone should remove any doubt.
On a side note I don't understand why they left the part, "You do not have to call obvious shots". Seems kind of contradictory........
Not half as contradictory as your conclusion bolded above which, there's no other way to say it, is just plain wrong
It doesn't mean you should call all shots and there's no good reason to think it does. In fact it means the exact opposite.
You have quoted 1.17.1........suggest you go back and read 1.17.2, 1.17.3 and 1.17.4 which immediately follow what you've quoted and it will be clear to you that in 8 ball you have to call ball and pocket for intended pots involving kicks, banks and combinations....but you do NOT have to call ball and pocket for any other kind of intended pots at all, unless your opponent specifically asks you in advance what your intention is !
Elsewhere in the rules, when kicking and banking is discussed in more detail it also becomes clear that even kicks or banks don't need a ball and pocket call unless it involves kicking or banking off a cushion on a rail that is not adjacent to the pocket in which the ball is potted.
Yes I saw both pages and yes of course I know what a more popular wider definition of a carom would be. As regards me knowing as much about history that may or may not be true but will remind you that our ancestors in Uk were 'caroming' on billiard tables while your predecessors in USA were smoking peace pipes with people called Geronimo and sometimes in the morning I feel old enough to have been there
I'm going to hazard a guess that my ancestors weren't smoking anything in the USA. I'm also going to hazard a guess that you weren't studying caroms with your ancestors. I'll also guess that your ancestors didn't call these shots "caroms."
I do know exactly what you mean Fred and this post is not intended to be too serious:)
.......but surely until somebody changes the rule book the definitions of kiss and carom in there ARE the relevant BCA definitions and they apply to everyone playing in an event being held to BCA League Rules, not just the newbies?
I guess this is where I'm confused. Somebody has apparently changed the definition or at the very least forgot to put the full definition in the BCA League booklet.
I don't understand why the BCA League definitions would include a definition for "Carom Shot" that isn't the full definition from the BCA Rulebook. The BCA Rulebook includes the definition for Carom. And the defnition for Kiss under the BCA Rulebook says "Also called a carom shot."
Since the BCA League was spawned from the BCA, I can't imagine that they would be so picky to redefine what a Carom Shot is. IMO, it's simply an oversight by. Do you disagree with this??? They are the same. They've always been the same. That is, 5 years ago when the BCA League was still part of the BCA, Carom and Kiss were the same. Pray tell why would someone purposefully redefine them after the BCA Leagues were purchased by Mark Griffin?
The most important thing being discussed is of course not the definitions of kiss/carom but the fact that in both spoons' examples absolutely no advance call of ball and pocket is required under the published BCA League Rules, unless his opponent asks him in advance to clarify his intention........and on that I'm sure we agree 100%. Thanks.
I will not be surprised if that guy waits for you in the parking lot.
what kind of justice and logic is that? the guy who disrespects the authority and does not call the shots is rewarded and his is opponent is punished for asking for clarity?
why this refusal to call the shot? Does the guy who wrote the laws and inserted the word 'obvious' has hidden intent to see that the 8 ball players constantly engage in bickering,arguement and fist fights?
That is the kind of logic that has been causing various individuals groups,societies and Nations warring with each other.Hell with 8 ball and hell with the rules of 8 ball.: :angry:
:angry: