Luv2RunOut1
Banned
apa is awesome
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8-Ball rules clarification - Calling Bob Jewett!
- Thread starter dzcues
- Start date
We're talking about BCA and World Standard rules here.
I have no idea what APA rules are but believe that since lucky shots count in APA, this would not be an issue at all. You could not call safe and make a ball at any time and it would still be your shot.
Luv2RunOut1 - How about quoting some rules that you know something about
I have no idea what APA rules are but believe that since lucky shots count in APA, this would not be an issue at all. You could not call safe and make a ball at any time and it would still be your shot.
Luv2RunOut1 - How about quoting some rules that you know something about
It is absolutely legal on an open break to play a safety and pocket a ball. But the ball pocketed on a safety is considered an illegally pocketed ball. There is no contradiction.Fore Rail said:
Fore Rail said:I'm saying that rule 4.10, 4.11 & 4.12 used in conjunction answer the original poster's question.
And you'd be wrong. "Legal shot" (4.11 and 4.12) is a different animal than "legally pocketed ball." And 4.10 references "legally pocketed ball," not "legal shot." There is no reason to try to equate the two terms considering that 4.16 explicitly defines "illegally pocketed ball" just to make sure people understand the difference.
Fred
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dzcues said:
NOT.................................
But I bet that players EGO feels better.
Thanks, everyone, for pointing out the subtle differences between a legal shot and a legally pocketed ball. My question was not so much about the legality of the safety but whether or not choice of balls could be determined on the same shot.
Rule 4.10 requires that choice of balls be made with a legally pocketed ball.
Rule 4.16 states that a ball pocketed on a safety is illegally pocketed.
Therefore, choice of balls cannot be declared when playing a safety on an open table.
It doesn't get much clearer than that.
Rule 4.10 requires that choice of balls be made with a legally pocketed ball.
Rule 4.16 states that a ball pocketed on a safety is illegally pocketed.
Therefore, choice of balls cannot be declared when playing a safety on an open table.
It doesn't get much clearer than that.
This
exact same question came up and was asked of me 2 weeks ago at a local Pool room. If one calls the ball and calls safe, and pockets the ball,
in my case it was on a solid/stripe combo, then there is nothing that prevents that player from having stripes in the rules.
I thiink the rules overlooked stating that a ball made on a safe is not legal, and that it would not determine who has solids or stripes.
BUT ACCORDING to how they are now, you could say it determined whether you had solids or stripes, which would certainly bring up some additional interesting strategy to use in 8 ball? depending on how the table layout is?
exact same question came up and was asked of me 2 weeks ago at a local Pool room. If one calls the ball and calls safe, and pockets the ball,
in my case it was on a solid/stripe combo, then there is nothing that prevents that player from having stripes in the rules.
I thiink the rules overlooked stating that a ball made on a safe is not legal, and that it would not determine who has solids or stripes.
BUT ACCORDING to how they are now, you could say it determined whether you had solids or stripes, which would certainly bring up some additional interesting strategy to use in 8 ball? depending on how the table layout is?
Crankshaft
New member
How’s this for accuracy? Prior to break, all 15 numbered balls are referred to as “object balls”.
Thus you have a cue ball and 15 object balls on the table prior to the break.
One or more “object balls” made on the break does not establish the breaker’s legal group of object balls. Only by sinking of a specific ball in a called pocket, following the break shot, can a shooter establish his group of balls.
.4.12 “SAFETY” SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a “safety” to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed
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The shooter breaks; intends to make a “safety” shot, but hasn’t yet established his group of “object balls” A “safety shot” is defined as a legal shot.
Now read 4.11
4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail. Please Note: It is permissible for the shooter to bank the cue ball off a rail before contacting the object ball; however, after contact with the object ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or any numbered ball must contact a rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.
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To make a “safety shot” legally, shooter must hit “one of his group of balls first” ..........
Therefore, as pertains to the original poster’s question: the breaker, immediately after the break has not yet established his group of balls and cannot make a “legal safety shot” as his second shot.
Crankshaft
Thus you have a cue ball and 15 object balls on the table prior to the break.
One or more “object balls” made on the break does not establish the breaker’s legal group of object balls. Only by sinking of a specific ball in a called pocket, following the break shot, can a shooter establish his group of balls.
.4.12 “SAFETY” SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a “safety” to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed
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The shooter breaks; intends to make a “safety” shot, but hasn’t yet established his group of “object balls” A “safety shot” is defined as a legal shot.
Now read 4.11
4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail. Please Note: It is permissible for the shooter to bank the cue ball off a rail before contacting the object ball; however, after contact with the object ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or any numbered ball must contact a rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.
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To make a “safety shot” legally, shooter must hit “one of his group of balls first” ..........
Therefore, as pertains to the original poster’s question: the breaker, immediately after the break has not yet established his group of balls and cannot make a “legal safety shot” as his second shot.
Crankshaft
I really don't think there's further room for debate. Cornerman and Bob Jewett have answered the question definitively and have backed up their statements by correctly quoting from the applicable sections of the BCA rules.
Next case!
Next case!
safety
This rule in VNEA. You can call the ball and pocket and also call a safety and the balls are yours. Bob said VNEA should change their rule. I have a question why should you have to continue to shoot after you establish your balls? A safe can be played after you establish but now while you can? I think BCA has it wrong. I am a certifed ref in both BCA and VNEA and this one rule I think BCA has wrong and VNEA right.
This rule in VNEA. You can call the ball and pocket and also call a safety and the balls are yours. Bob said VNEA should change their rule. I have a question why should you have to continue to shoot after you establish your balls? A safe can be played after you establish but now while you can? I think BCA has it wrong. I am a certifed ref in both BCA and VNEA and this one rule I think BCA has wrong and VNEA right.
According to World Standard rule that the BCA adopted in 1999:
When you are playing 'call pocket' you have a choice to either call a 'ball and a pocket' or call 'safe'. You cannot call it both ways on a single shot, it has to be one or the other.
If the VNEA rule says you can call BOTH on the same shot, I agree with Bob Jewett, that that rule needs to be addressed.
If you call 'safe' your inning is over.
If you call a ball and a pocket and you are successful, your inning continues.
A 'safe' call does not meet the requirements for establishing a group of balls. I believe this is true in VNEA as well as WPA and BCA.
Would you be more specific in which section in the VNEA rules allows the shooter calling "ball in a pocket" and "safe" at the same time?
When you are playing 'call pocket' you have a choice to either call a 'ball and a pocket' or call 'safe'. You cannot call it both ways on a single shot, it has to be one or the other.
If the VNEA rule says you can call BOTH on the same shot, I agree with Bob Jewett, that that rule needs to be addressed.
If you call 'safe' your inning is over.
If you call a ball and a pocket and you are successful, your inning continues.
A 'safe' call does not meet the requirements for establishing a group of balls. I believe this is true in VNEA as well as WPA and BCA.
Would you be more specific in which section in the VNEA rules allows the shooter calling "ball in a pocket" and "safe" at the same time?
etimmons said:
The rule is not written down, it is their intrepretation. This was a question and answer in " eight ball news and views written by Mike Fowler, he is the rules head in Ohio. I have been personally involved in this call at the state and national tournaments. Sorry we disagree on the rule but I still like it over the bca rule.Tom In Cincy said:
etimmons said:
I love the old "not written down, but that's how we do it" rules. Sounds like most bar eight ball rules.
This situation is clear enough that it would only take one or two sentences to write it into the VNEA rules, however you want to do it, and avoid any future confusion.
The poser did not say if the shooter called the ball, the pocket, and a safety. If the shooter did all the above, it ought to be a legal shot. It is the equivalent of making a ball to establish the suit, then playing a safety.
I have been aware of this possibility for several years but never had the opportunity to use it. In my opinion, VNEA has it right by allowing this, BCA ought to review this issue.
Why is a ball that is pocketed after calling a safety considered an illegally pocketed ball? What is the penalty? The owner of that suit of balls is credited for the ball, and it is a possibility that the round could be won with the illegally pocketed ball. If it is illegal, then there should be no benefit to either player. Why not re-word the rules to make this a legal shot? It is just another strategy in the game and either player can take advantage of it.
my 2 cents
I have been aware of this possibility for several years but never had the opportunity to use it. In my opinion, VNEA has it right by allowing this, BCA ought to review this issue.
Why is a ball that is pocketed after calling a safety considered an illegally pocketed ball? What is the penalty? The owner of that suit of balls is credited for the ball, and it is a possibility that the round could be won with the illegally pocketed ball. If it is illegal, then there should be no benefit to either player. Why not re-word the rules to make this a legal shot? It is just another strategy in the game and either player can take advantage of it.
my 2 cents