8 ball rules

As far as VNEA goes, this subject was covered in depth in a prior thread. Please pay particular attention to the several VNEA officials that reply, in addition to my post #20. Pretty much everything you would want to know, and a fair bit that you probably don't want to know, is covered.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=322880&highlight=vnea

The result is that in VNEA a group may be claimed on a safety. Don't like it? Go back and re-read the thread, especially post 20, again. Until VNEA changes the rules, the thread is pretty definitive.

Buddy

Thank you so much. Your explanation in that thread was exactly what I needed to see.

So my concern then is that very few VNEA players know of this rule. And most of those who do have had it used against them. I guess I would just like to see it explicitly called out in the VNEA rule book so that players are more aware. BCA managed to do that (although opposite), so it's not so much to ask IMO.
 
Karla...I didn't read any of the other responses, but here's the answer. Player 1 has committed a foul, as no side has been yet determined by legally pocketing a called ball...therefore he cannot pocket a ball and play safe. This is according to WPA standardized rules. I see that VNEA rules appear to be different.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The table is open and it's a mess. No groups have an advantage. Both players play safe multiple times without pocketing a ball. After about 4 innings each, player 1 says "safe" and pockets a stripe. Player 2 comes to the table, has a clear shot at a stripe, and that group now has a slight advantage. Instinctively, do you think player 2 can shoot the stripe legally?

If you know that VNEA rules are being used, does your answer change?
 
The stripe was shot straight into a pocket. No bank, no carom, clearly intentional. Do you still say yes?

yes, ball was not called. Safety was. In order to claim a suit (in VNEAs twisted rules) and still play safe, you have to explicitly call the shot in conjunction with safety.
 
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I don't participate or play VNEA, but here are the rules that I found online.
http://www.vnea.com/8-ball-rules.aspx

For the OP's situation, VNEA rules C, E and G appears to address this.

C. OPEN TABLE
..The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

E. PLAY
1. If a shooter inadvertently pockets his opponents ball, it remains down, however, if the shooter does not legally pocket one of his own group, he loses his turn.

2. Each player continues to shoot so long as he legally pockets any of his object balls (Exception: calling a safety). Should a player fail to pocket his designated group ball, he shall lose his turn.

G. LEGAL SHOTS

On all shots (exception: page 11C and on the break), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket any group ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any other ball to contact a rail.
* (There are two groups of balls: stripes and solids)

...

“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

To paraphrase a well know saying, you can't have your safety and call it too.

So here is the issue with the rules as to why it may be legal to call a safe and have that be your selection of groups. It states that you must make a "legal called shot" to determine your group. Then in the safety shot section they say that a safety shot is a "legal" shot. BUT... it's not a "called" shot since you are not calling the ball but a safe and during the safe you are pocketing a ball, which is legal. Let's keep that distincion in mind.

So in the wording of the rule, it may seem that it's OK in VENA rules to pocket a ball on a safe and have it be your group, yet if you really divide up what a "called shot" is, a safety is not that. If you pocket a called ball, you are shooting that ball in a pocket as your indended shot. When you call a safe, you are playing a safe as your shot, and as a side-effect of the safe you pocket a ball (as long as it's a legal shot at a neutral or your group ball). Once you look at those differences, even in VENA a safe shot is not a "called shot" to establish groups.

Since you can't both "Call a ball" and "Call a safe" on the same shot in much the same way you can't call 2 balls at the same shot if you think both or one of the two may go in but not sure which, I don't see that playing safe even in the VENA rules as written would give you a group selection during a safe shot.

If anyone said "I'm playing safe and calling the 10 in the side" I will ask which shot he's actually doing. Just because you can pocket a ball on a called safe in 8 ball does not mean that the shot is a "called legal shot" as the rules say. It's the same thing that may happen if you go out for a pizza and come back with a pizza and chips, your goal was to get the pizza, the chips just happened as a side affect of that trip.

EDIT>. I read that older post above, while the refs say that it's OK to call safe, pocket a ball and have that be your group, I don't see that as a proper interpetation of the rules. Yes, call safe while pocketing the ball is a legal shot. BUT.. to chose your groups you have to pocket a called ball. You can't by any stretch of the imagination call the same shot two different ways. The pocketing of a ball on a safe, in the exact rules above, is NOT a "called shot" of that ball, it's a side-effect of a safe where you give up your chance to have the ball count for the advantages of the safe. If the ball does not count as a legal pocketed shot, then it can't count as a "called shot" to pick your group.

Even counting that fact out, every other real pool rule on the planet states that you can't call a shot and a safe at the same time, in order for VENA to totally turn a blind eye to that is so unthinkable that it hurts my brain just picturing the lack of logic in a group that would say this shot is OK to do.

There either needs to be a clear distinction of what a "called shot" is and what is just a "legal shot". No-where in the safe rule does it state that the shot made on a safe is a "called shot", it just states that you can make a ball and play safe at the same time. They don't say "you need to say safe and then 4 in the corner" you just have to call safe and if you make "an obvious ball" you don't have to shoot again. It's the intention of the shot, not the result that counts here, or it should. As I said, my brain hurts thinking about anyone that would decide it's OK to call a safe AND a shot at the same time.

This whole mess can be easily solved with a short edit to the rules. A group can or can't be called on a safe. Done. Realy the logic or lack of logic in the rule is outside of anyone's business aside from whoever wrote the VENA rules, if whoever runs VENA things that calling a safe and a ball at the same time sounds OK in their head, go for it dude. Just make sure it's in writting for people who can't grasp that idea. Myself, I wold check with the players that know how pool is played outside of league and go with that.

Maybe I'll try that with the wife, "so honey, I will be totally faithful to you , but I'm going to go bang that waitress while I'm being faithful".
 
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This whole mess can be easily solved with a short edit to the rules. A group can or can't be called on a safe. Done. Realy the logic or lack of logic in the rule is outside of anyone's business aside from whoever wrote the VENA rules, if whoever runs VENA things that calling a safe and a ball at the same time sounds OK in their head, go for it dude. Just make sure it's in writting for people who can't grasp that idea. Myself, I wold check with the players that know how pool is played outside of league and go with that.

This is really the crux of the matter. The VNEA rule (although only implied) is the opposite to other rule sets as well as to what players instinctively believe, as is clearly demonstrated in this thread as well as in my discussions with many master-level players. The fact that it's only implied in writing but then enforced by officials is a clear disservice to players and an invitation for controversy during play.
 
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