8-Ball - Shooting in your opponent's balls

Billy_Bob

Billy_Bob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I sure have come full circle with my 8-ball strategy from when I first started playing many years ago. I now sometimes find myself helping my opponent to shoot in his balls - get most of his balls off the table. (Sometimes in certain situations, if I have a clever opponent, he is using his balls to pocket my balls and I am using my balls to pocket his balls!)

I help my opponent make his balls when one of his balls is say in a cluster with the 8, there is no shot on the 8, no shot on my opponent's ball, and no easy way to break it out with another shot.

So what is he going to do? Let him run in all his balls - get them out of my way!

Then he will *have* to deal with that cluster, not be able to pocket his ball, and give me a shot. And being as I have most or all my balls still on the table, he will have a very difficult time snookering me. But he will have only one ball left and it will be quite easy for me to snooker him.

And with all his balls gone and the 8 broken out, it will be quite easy for me to then run out.

So I help my opponent get to this point. I intentionally miss my shot and leave the cue ball so he can easily make his balls. And if he is intentionally missing shots or blocking pockets, then I might use one of my balls to pocket one of his balls. And they don't like this one bit if it is their last ball other than the cluster.

Then there are some rare situations where I've seen players directly shoot in their opponent's ball and give their opponent ball-in-hand. This might be where the 8 is near a corner pocket clustered with his opponent's ball.

And his opponent keeps snookering him with his other balls. An attempt to hit the 8 with a kick shot could easily break out the 8 and also scratch, so not a good idea. So just start shooting in your opponent's balls one at a time and giving him ball in hand each time. Then eventually he will have to shoot at his last ball which is clustered with the 8. Hopefully he will then make an error and give you a shot on the 8. I saw someone win this way once - shot in 6 of his opponent's balls giving his opponent ball-in-hand each time (8 was clustered prior to his doing this).
 
Billy_Bob said:
Hopefully he will then make an error and give you a shot on the 8.
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While I will agree that there are times when making one or two of your opponent's balls is good strategy, I can't imagine a game where I would want to make most of his shots for him.
The one line from your post above is the major flaw in this strategy. When you are counting on your opponent to make an error so you can win, you have given up control of the game to your opponent. I have much more confidence and control when I am at the table. When I give up the table on purpose, it must be for a very good reason, and done correctly. I can't recall ever doing it multiple times in one game unless I was going for a 3-foul.
Steve
 
As you know, this tactic is extremely powerful and legal under barroom pool rules. Your opponent may get mad, but it is entirely legal and you can usually play a safety after making your opponents ball, since they are not going to get ball in hand.

I would keep this secret weapon in the back pocket until you had a must-win situation, as it WILL start the crap flying, but I certainly would not be afraid to use it against anyone trying to take my money while holding me to barroom rules.

Shooting this type of shot usually goes off like an atomic bomb... I would actually suggest that you stand up after shooting it and say: "Oh! I thought I was stripes!" or something like that....

Hey, someone else set the rules, I just find a way to win within those rules.
 
At least your thinking. The strategy of making an opponents ball is valid, but it doesn't happen very often. If this is something you are looking for chances to do then you are giving it to much merit. If his ball is blocking a pocket there are usually other alternatives you can consider before letting them at the table. You let them at the table and before you know it they safe you and it becomes another one on the lose side. Depends on the player I guess. Against a strong player, he doesn't care if you make his or not. Against a week player you shouldn't need to do this.

Thinking out of the box like this is good, but I wouldn't dwell on it.
 
Thinking out of the box is imperative! I was taking a shower the morning of the ACUI tournament (no pool jokes here please!), and thought of a strategy...

The tourney was 8-ball and call pocket (this was 1988 or so). If you pocketed a ball in the wrong pocket, it was spotted. In the shower, I realized that you could call the wrong pocket and shoot your ball in and spot it up to block your opponent's ball.... I just filed that info away and guess what? Yep! During my final match, final game, hill-hill... I needed that shot to win the game to go to the regional tourney. I called the wrong pocket and shot the ball in and my opponent started to walk to the table for his easy shot... I said "Wait!" and spotted the ball, blocking his shot and his eyes widened in surprise and realization that I had him! It was beautiful.

So, I like any lines of thinking of strategy that clearly falls within the rules of the game.

If it is legal, you should use it... you can be damn sure that your opponent will!

Pocketing your opponent's ball comes up once in a while and it is good to keep your eyes peeled for it, as it can be a game breaker.
 
BillYards said:
As you know, this tactic is extremely powerful and legal under barroom pool rules. Your opponent may get mad, but it is entirely legal and you can usually play a safety after making your opponents ball, since they are not going to get ball in hand.

I would keep this secret weapon in the back pocket until you had a must-win situation, as it WILL start the crap flying, but I certainly would not be afraid to use it against anyone trying to take my money while holding me to barroom rules.

Shooting this type of shot usually goes off like an atomic bomb... I would actually suggest that you stand up after shooting it and say: "Oh! I thought I was stripes!" or something like that....

Hey, someone else set the rules, I just find a way to win within those rules.
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I agree with Bill, I've used this strategy in a bar rules situation. And yes fur flys. but I'm an a$$hole when it comes to bar rules, I'll just say "show me a rule that says I can't do that" or, "If you make more of your balls I wouldn't have to help you out like that". And they for the most part shut up for a bit. It's always fun to liven things up a bit.

In the rare occasion it can be usefull in a BCA rules situation, especially if you're faced with a high probability of fouling anyways it's advantageous to shoot your opponents most strategic ball in providing most of his other balls are tied up.
 
Billy_Bob said:
I help my opponent make his balls when one of his balls is say in a cluster with the 8, there is no shot on the 8, no shot on my opponent's ball, and no easy way to break it out with another shot.

So what is he going to do? Let him run in all his balls - get them out of my way!

Then he will *have* to deal with that cluster, not be able to pocket his ball, and give me a shot. And being as I have most or all my balls still on the table, he will have a very difficult time snookering me. But he will have only one ball left and it will be quite easy for me to snooker him.
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This backfires against strong (and smart) players. They will not run their balls out unless they can effectively "deal" with the cluster, and the better player they are, the more they might surprise you with the way they solve the problems you thought would prevent them from running out.

So in a lot of cases, if you play good 8-ball players, you'll find you can't count on them not to get out unless you play a good safe, or unless the spread is totally horrendous. And even then the smart ones, if they're not going to get out, will find a way to make you pay for giving them control of the table.

-Andrew
 
hondo said:
If you make his ball, why wouldn't this be ball
in hand for him? I'm lost?
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Not if you contact your ball first.

There are times when giving BIH and potting your opponents ball is the right move. For example, (I'd diagram this on cue-table, but I can't use shockwave at work) in a league match my teammate had two balls up, her opponent (a runout shooter) had three up: one near the head rail, one a few inches from the side pocket, and the other frozen against my teammate's ball near the foot rail.

My teammate was snookered: her only chance at legal shot was a kick (IIRC) that would have opened up the cluster. Instead she took the foul, sinking the side pocket hanger. Her opponent was now left with no easy way to get from the head rail to the foot rail AND open his last ball. He tried anyway, opened the table for her, and she ran out.
 
Often there are times when making your opponent's ball (using yours) is a very wise move - f'rinstance, when your opponent has a ball sitting in the corner, an obvious duck shot, and your ball is nearby - roll your ball into his, sink his, your ball takes his ball's place for the duck shot.

I find that making an opponent's ball is smartest toward the end of a game - when, say, my opponent has two balls left on the table, one is really hooked good - the other, much more open, but sinkable using a combo/carom off one of my balls. Reducing your opponent's options is always a good thing, IMHO.

But you have to have the cue ball control to not only put your opponent's ball down, AND put the cue ball where your opponent is screwed for whatever's left.
 
ScottW said:
Often there are times when making your opponent's ball (using yours) is a very wise move - f'rinstance, when your opponent has a ball sitting in the corner, an obvious duck shot, and your ball is nearby - roll your ball into his, sink his, your ball takes his ball's place for the duck shot.

I find that making an opponent's ball is smartest toward the end of a game - when, say, my opponent has two balls left on the table, one is really hooked good - the other, much more open, but sinkable using a combo/carom off one of my balls. Reducing your opponent's options is always a good thing, IMHO.

But you have to have the cue ball control to not only put your opponent's ball down, AND put the cue ball where your opponent is screwed for whatever's left.
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This is a great lock up safety strategy, it works even better when you can play the carom off your ball and leave the CB sinking his/hers and leaving the CB in the mouth of your pocket behind your ball.
 
In my opinion, this is one of those tactics that brings 8-ball closer to chess than to checkers. I am surprised that many people have so far mostly dismissed it. Most of the time this strategy should be used, the player employing it is in a bad, bad spot. I also can’t access WEI at work, but it doesn’t matter. If the following holds true, you should start thinking seriously about pocketing your opponent’s balls:

1) You have no offensive shot at all (not even, in the immortal words of Danny Barouty, a “stupid shot” :) )
2) You have no way to play a reasonable defensive shot AND any legal hit you try will almost certainly make the layout better for your opponent
3) Your opponent has open balls that he will be able to see no matter what lame safe you play (i.e., he has balls hanging in pockets)
4) Your opponent will have a tough time playing safe and opening the cluster; i.e., he will have to go into it with force on an offensive break shot.

That’s pretty much it. There’s also a definite order in which you should start picking off your opponent’s balls. First go the likely break balls, then go the insurance balls hanging in the pockets.

This strategy won’t bring your chances of winning the game from 50% to 80%. It brings them, usually, from 0% to something like 30%. Of course you’re still an underdog. Someone was saying that these strategies don’t work against great players – I assure you that you won’t win most of these games doing anything else against great players. The fact that the thought of pocketing his balls has even come into play implies that you have gotten yourself into an awful, awful position – great players don’t let you out of situations like this, not in 8-ball. Their natural instinct is to start manipulating their balls into a cohesive pattern that takes all luck out of the out (even with a cluster or two on the table). They’re going to start setting up insurance balls, break balls, etc… well, if you match their every play by pocketing the balls they are trying to move into good positions, they will quickly run out of time. In effect, you are forcing the action. Put in percentage terms, this might mean you are forcing them to take a break shot with chances of success at 70% (break it out and be able to continue the run). The other 30% they might literally have no shot - and all of a sudden you are right back in there.

The other very interesting thing about this strategy is that it often prevents you from doing something you’d like. For example, when I have my opponent dead-to-rights in a game, I know if he is a knowledgeable player that he’s not going to make it easy on me. I can’t give him a million innings (even if he has no way to pocket a ball) because he’s just going to start making my balls. I’ll run out of time. So therefore I have to choose my plays well – because I know he very well might start pocketing my balls.

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
4) Your opponent will have a tough time playing safe and opening the cluster; i.e., he will have to go into it with force on an offensive break shot.
Click to expand...


If there is a cluster that you can't seem to get to but the opponent has a ball that he can use as a breakout shot. I have combo'd into his breakout ball and sent it to the other end of the table. Still this is a last resort type of move.
 
I should have made it more clear that "shooting in your opponent's balls" is a very *rare* thing. Like maybe once in many months type of thing, and is "thinking out of the box".

And yes it is in situations late in the game where you have about 0% chance of winning if you were to shoot at one of your balls.

Translated into "bar rules" play, this is a situation where an "intentional miscue" would be the best move. I would not advise directly hitting your opponent's ball in a bar rules tournament unless you can make it appear to be an accident. This can get you into trouble. It will tick some people off quite a bit. Best to do this with a kick shot or bank shot, then say "Darn! I was sure off on that shot. Aren't you going to thank me for making your ball?"

But with BCA rules you are typically playing better players, so this can be an option in the rare situations it pops up. (Along with picking up the cue ball and handing it to your opponent rather than shooting.)

Here is one situation I saw where this strategy was used...
(I don't have this exact, but this was the general idea.)
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/

START(
%Bk2G4%CF1C9%DZ6V9%EI2E8%FG7X4%GW3H0%HD8C8%PJ1G3%WH1W0%XI9G9
%YC9E7%ZG3[2
)END

Player A messed up his shot on the 8 and it is player B's turn to shoot. It makes no sense for player B to shoot in his balls because of the tied up 8 situation. So player B gently kicks the 6 into the corner (leaving it as a breakout shot), then player A is faced with this...

START(
%Bk2G4%CF6D0%DZ6V9%EI2E8%FC7D1%GW3H0%HE1C9%PH2W7

)END

Then Player A gently shoots in the 6 (his opponent's ball) so as to not disturb the 8. This gives his opponent ball-in-hand. Then Player B plays a safety snookering player A and leaving him with a dangerous kick shot. Player A sees where this is headed and does not want to attempt to kick at the 8 because he risks knocking it out of the way and not making it into a pocket. Then because the other player has so many balls left, it would be likely he would have a shot and could run out. So player A shoots in another of his opponent's balls and gives him ball-in hand.

Eventually they are down to just the 8 and 3, player B attempts a half ball hit on the 3 to move it further away from the 8 (and leave the other guy with a kick on the 8), but messes up. Then player A shoots in the 8.

This match was quite funny to watch - Player B: "I'll position my solders (balls) for a break out." or "I'll use my solders to snooker you, then you will have a difficult kick shot." Player A: "Well I'll just get rid of your solders (pocket opponent's balls) and then what are you going to do?"
 
Steve Lipsky said:
In my opinion, this is one of those tactics that brings 8-ball closer to chess than to checkers. I am surprised that many people have so far mostly dismissed it. Most of the time this strategy should be used, the player employing it is in a bad, bad spot. I also can’t access WEI at work, but it doesn’t matter. If the following holds true, you should start thinking seriously about pocketing your opponent’s balls:

1) You have no offensive shot at all (not even, in the immortal words of Danny Barouty, a “stupid shot” :) )
2) You have no way to play a reasonable defensive shot AND any legal hit you try will almost certainly make the layout better for your opponent
3) Your opponent has open balls that he will be able to see no matter what lame safe you play (i.e., he has balls hanging in pockets)
4) Your opponent will have a tough time playing safe and opening the cluster; i.e., he will have to go into it with force on an offensive break shot.

That’s pretty much it. There’s also a definite order in which you should start picking off your opponent’s balls. First go the likely break balls, then go the insurance balls hanging in the pockets.

This strategy won’t bring your chances of winning the game from 50% to 80%. It brings them, usually, from 0% to something like 30%. Of course you’re still an underdog. Someone was saying that these strategies don’t work against great players – I assure you that you won’t win most of these games doing anything else against great players. The fact that the thought of pocketing his balls has even come into play implies that you have gotten yourself into an awful, awful position – great players don’t let you out of situations like this, not in 8-ball. Their natural instinct is to start manipulating their balls into a cohesive pattern that takes all luck out of the out (even with a cluster or two on the table). They’re going to start setting up insurance balls, break balls, etc… well, if you match their every play by pocketing the balls they are trying to move into good positions, they will quickly run out of time. In effect, you are forcing the action. Put in percentage terms, this might mean you are forcing them to take a break shot with chances of success at 70% (break it out and be able to continue the run). The other 30% they might literally have no shot - and all of a sudden you are right back in there.

The other very interesting thing about this strategy is that it often prevents you from doing something you’d like. For example, when I have my opponent dead-to-rights in a game, I know if he is a knowledgeable player that he’s not going to make it easy on me. I can’t give him a million innings (even if he has no way to pocket a ball) because he’s just going to start making my balls. I’ll run out of time. So therefore I have to choose my plays well – because I know he very well might start pocketing my balls.

- Steve
Click to expand...

Great post Steve!
 
Don't underestimate your opponent!

- don't get into a hoser game with a hoser!
- don't get into a running game with a runner!
- step lightly around those who can do both of the above well :eek: .
 
One thing I've learned recently from good 8 ball players is when you approach the table, don't only look at your runout pattern, look at your opponent's. If you can't find a solution to run out, make your opponent's out ten times as difficult.
 
Another thought on this...

Say you've broken the balls and made 3 solids. Now, do you take stripes (7 balls to shoot) or solids (only 4 balls to shoot)? Assume each has an easy starter shot.

Some would take solids as it is "easier" with only 4 balls to shoot before the 8-ball. Actually, the easier choice may be stripes, as the solids are not blocking the way of the stripes as much as the stripes are blocking the way of the solids.

This happened last night and my buddy chose the lesser number of balls as his group. I beat him because he couldn't navigate around the more numerous balls in my group.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
 
Another thing...

One thing I have been finding very valuable in 8 ball strategy lately, which I am sure most of you already play, but the 3 foul rule is very strong. A lot of the guys I play against will break and make 5 or 6 balls and not get out. They hope that I will mess up my run and then give them a couple easy shots and it's over. This happens time and time again in league play. Lately, I have just been 3 fouling people, over and over. When I have six balls on the table and they have one, it is too easy to lock them up, especially against guys that don't kick very well. I feel kinda crappy every time I do it, but if we are playing for some $$, it's like taking candy from a baby. IMO.
 
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