8-Ball Strategy: After the Break, Can't go out?

Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One weakness in my game is choice of shot after a break with open table when the out is too difficult to make.

In English 8-ball, which is the game I played for many years, the options are quite clear (usually try make a ball then block a pocket), but this strategy is much less useful in US 8-ball.

So I was hoping some of you guys could help me out with some strategy options for these situation. Explain your thinking process. Perhaps some wei table examples of how you would handle certain situations.

Colin
 
Collin,
Given your guidelines it is not unwise to establish on the best set of balls, play a safety that may open/advance one of your problems, and at the same time try to create a problem on his set of balls all the while not leaving him a good start up shot.....LOL....easier said than done.
Playing the players you will be playing I'm not so sure there is a good option other than running out under any circumstances....good luck and let'er buck...:)
 
Colin Colenso said:
One weakness in my game is choice of shot after a break with open table when the out is too difficult to make.

In English 8-ball, which is the game I played for many years, the options are quite clear (usually try make a ball then block a pocket), but this strategy is much less useful in US 8-ball.

So I was hoping some of you guys could help me out with some strategy options for these situation. Explain your thinking process. Perhaps some wei table examples of how you would handle certain situations.

Colin
Click to expand...
Hey Colin,
If you haven't already read it, you should read Phil Capelle's book, "Play Your Best Eight Ball," for all-around strategies on playing this game.
 
Colin,

I agree with poolsharkallen, "Play your best 8-ball" by Phil Capelle is a very good book to learn the strategies of 8-ball. He also has a section about 8-ball in his book "Play your best pool". I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking how does one go about choosing the right set of balls (i.e., solids or strips) or are you asking about strategy on how to proceed with the run once you've made your choice. Obviously, one would choose the set of ball that are not tied-up. So once you've made you selection and notice that you have more than 2 balls tied-up, if there is no way of breaking them up, it would be prudent to play a defensive game.
 
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cheesemouse said:
Collin,
Given your guidelines it is not unwise to establish on the best set of balls, play a safety that may open/advance one of your problems, and at the same time try to create a problem on his set of balls all the while not leaving him a good start up shot.....LOL....easier said than done.
Playing the players you will be playing I'm not so sure there is a good option other than running out under any circumstances....good luck and let'er buck...:)
Click to expand...
Thanks CM,
I guess that's pretty much close to what I am thinking in these situations, but it can be damn hard to find an attractive option that will really work against a top player.

It's pretty darn hard to find a decent snookering option when the opponent has 7 balls to choose from.

I'll have to get myself Phil's book as the other guys suggested. Might find a few gems in their.

I just have the feeling I'm missing some secret strategy...but possibly not. Probably just needs more practice so I can recognize better options a bit quicker.

I'd like to try to put together a check list / flow chart, such as I introduced in the other thread about blocked balls.

I think putting together something like this and memorizing it helps to avoid wasted thinking and improves one's confidence in knowing that they know what they should do for any given situation.

Colin
 
Collin,
This is something I have seen only one player do consistanly playing 8ball( Dan Louie back in the 80's). I call it buying insurance. Dan would take the time to create problems in his opponents set of balls while he ran his own set out. He wouldn't risk queering his own run but I watched him do it repeatedly even though he was going to get out anyway by the time he was done the other set of balls would be a mess. I think it is easiestly done early in the run....just buying insurance...LOL
 
cheesemouse said:
Collin,
This is something I have seen only one player do consistanly playing 8ball( Dan Louie back in the 80's). I call it buying insurance. Dan would take the time to create problems in his opponents set of balls while he ran his own set out. He wouldn't risk queering his own run but I watched him do it repeatedly even though he was going to get out anyway by the time he was done the other set of balls would be a mess. I think it is easiestly done early in the run....just buying insurance...LOL
Click to expand...
You have to have a really delicate touch for this kind of play. It's a given fact in 8-ball that as soon as you start bumping balls you're going to start running into trouble.
 
Personally, I look to see which set has more balls tied up. If it's about even, I look to see if there are more break out balls near one group. If that is about even, I'll look to see if, by moving one ball, I can tie up/block the pocket of two or more of the other group. For example, if both sets have the same amount of problems, I look to see if I can roll a ball in front of one of the lower corner pockets and block the route of two of his balls. I choose the two lower corner pockets because the 8 ball seems to need to go into them more than other pockets.
*edit- if you are thinking safe from the get-go, try to leave your opponent with at least 3 problem balls before you give up the table.


Eric
 
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On the Run said:
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking how does one go about choosing the right set of balls (i.e., solids or strips) or are you asking about strategy on how to proceed with the run once you've made your choice. Obviously, one would choose the set of ball that are not tied-up. So once you've made you selection and notice that you have more than 2 balls tied-up, if there is no way of breaking them up, it would be prudent to play a defensive game.
Click to expand...

I'm also confused on what question is being asked here? :confused:
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
I'm also confused on what question is being asked here? :confused:
Click to expand...
Oh...sorry for the confusion.

The situation I am refering to is when after the break, open table, when the best possible runout plan is probably well under a 50% chance of running out.

So instead of digging a hole by potting several balls and messing up to move straight into a defensive mode so as to maintain as good a chance in the game as is possible.

The question is, what type of strategies do players use in this situation, how to analyse the table etc.

Colin
 
Probably a good idea to post a few table layouts colin, you might find yourself answering your own questions though as you draw them. You know my feelings, I think in the rules you are playing you can probably afford a couple of attempts to break out balls but every layout is so different. If it really is a dire layout then youve just got to look at the best 2/3 way shots, with the aboloute main priority of getting the cb safe. If its hard to get a snooker dont forget the option of playing off your own ball and leaving the cb frozen to your opponents ball pref in a corner not too close to the rail though. Given that they have to hit a rail this can often be a great safe and result in a tactic advantage and control of the table.

Another difference with UK rules as Im sure you noticed is that in the UK you would put your own ball in front of your opponents. Where as its probably better to do the reverse in these rules esp if you leave the combination. This makes it tough for them to get position but also gives you options of playing the combo and leaving a safe/snooker.

Of course playing a carom to push the 8 ball close to your own ball near a pocket is still a strong shot like in uk rules because of course they can't use the 8 ball to make the carom. I'm sure you know the score, and I'm sure you watched enough matches in Vegas to know the shots. (oh forgot the stip clubs! ;))
 
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Colin Colenso said:
Oh...sorry for the confusion.

The situation I am refering to is when after the break, open table, when the best possible runout plan is probably well under a 50% chance of running out.

So instead of digging a hole by potting several balls and messing up to move straight into a defensive mode so as to maintain as good a chance in the game as is possible.

The question is, what type of strategies do players use in this situation, how to analyse the table etc.

Colin
Click to expand...

HI Colin -

I win many tournaments playing this way,

The way I see it, if you cannot get out , the more balls on the table of your kind (stripes or solids) the better!

therefore you have to look at it percentage wise, after the break ask yourself? can I run this rack out? I will attempt it if my chances are over 60% not that I do the math, but depending on how feel about it.

If I cant I want to make sure my opponent cant run it out,

so....

after the break I like to think of what I want stipes or solids..

then I go after that kind, and then I think of if I can take ball in hand and play safe where would I set the cue ball, then I try to get to that place in as little moves as possible, if I dont get there I will play some kind of defensive shot, leave the them long (if not a very good player) or leave them in some kind of undesireable position.


I see so many players get themselves into situation where they have 2 or 3 balls left and the odds of them getting out is like 3 or 4%, why accept those odds?? I even see it from top players in my state, and I have even beeaten top players in my state by playing defensive



now if both stripes and solids are bad, I would not hit any in and just play safe, or even give my opponent a shot on a ball knowing they are not going to get out over 60% of the time, but guess what, as soon as they shoot a ball in, their odds on the match just went down because now I have 7 stripes out to thier 6 solids, the more they end up hitting in the more my oddds go up, and if they get down to 3 to 4 balls and have not getten out , its almost a sure win for the player with 7 stripes out, open balls and easy safes to play.


Wouldnt you get shot for playing pool like this in the bars back in the 80's? LOL

I hope this helps, its helps me!

good luck!

FE
 
i first choose wich balls id like to have.

i cathegorise them in A B and C class balls.
C: balls that are clustered.
B: balls that arent pottable in each pocket or that are blocking another ball of yours.
A: balls that are potable everywhere.

mostly i just compare the amount of C of stripes vs the amount of C of the solids. i take the one with the least C's. if the amount is equal or close, i compare the B's.

if there is a runout. i try to chose a runout pattern where the C's are potted as soon as possible. there should never be a B or C ball left in the last 3. i do this so that if i pot the difficult C ball, its only going to be easyer and easyer after each shot. its more a All or nothing shot. u either pot it, and probably clear. or u dont pot it, and... well u lose vs ralph souquet :D

if there is no runout. i still use same system to chose stripes or solids. First ball i pot , is a A ball this time. why? to be sure at least u have the best balls to do a runout in 2 or more innings. i useually play a safety after this, by use the CB or an OB to free the C balls (clustered) and make them A balls. then i know if my oponent doesnt runs out, u'll only have B and A balls left. = easy succes.

this is how i start 8ball. and it REALLY makes me a very good 8ball player.

think ive covered it all for the first ball to pot. :D feel free to mention me in your 'still to come' already famous 'the Calcul8tor goes mathematical' books comes out :D
 
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product_thumb.php


Great book, tons, almost overloaded with info. Caters to the bar table eight ball league shooter, but most diagrams are taken from in game during pro matches on a 9 footer, so obviously the information pertains to any size table.
 
Colin,
If the layout of the balls is not too good, there are a variety of strategies that you can employ:
  1. Don't run more than 3 balls at a time if you don't think you can run out
  2. If you have a cluster of balls, try to deal with it as soon as possible
  3. Many players have difficulty shooting shots at a distance, so put the CB at the other end of the table, if possible. ...and preferably on the rail.
  4. If a ball from your opponent's group is blocking the pocket, try to clear it out ASAP as it may give your opponent too many options.
  5. Utilize ball-in-hand opportunities to resolve problems with your group of balls.
 
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PoolSharkAllen said:
Colin,
If the layout of the balls is not too good, there are a variety of strategies that you can employ:
  1. Don't run more than 3 balls at a time if you don't think you can run out
  2. If you have a cluster of balls, try to deal with it as soon as possible
  3. Many players have difficulty shooting shots at a distance, so put the CB at the other end of the table, if possible. ...and preferably on the rail.
  4. If a ball from your opponent's group is blocking the pocket, try to clear it out ASAP as it may give your opponent too many options.
  5. Utilize ball-in-hand opportunities to resolve problems with your group of balls.
Click to expand...

Great strategies.
 
Colin Colenso said:
One weakness in my game is choice of shot after a break with open table when the out is too difficult to make.

In English 8-ball, which is the game I played for many years, the options are quite clear (usually try make a ball then block a pocket), but this strategy is much less useful in US 8-ball.

So I was hoping some of you guys could help me out with some strategy options for these situation. Explain your thinking process. Perhaps some wei table examples of how you would handle certain situations.

Colin
Click to expand...

Colin, the very first thing I do after the break shot is to scan the table looking for the most troublesome balls. Balls, which if not moved or "shaken" as Buddy Halls says, will become BIG trouble in the end game. When I spot these ball(s), my very first shot is dedicated to moving those balls so that they can be run during my first inning. If the ball(s) cannot be moved on the first shot, I play shape to get on the next ball (and so on) so that I can break out the trouble balls. This is probably the most important thing in eight ball for a person to learn, IMHO. You may already know this and are looking for patterns to run out. If you have some specific instances that you would like for me to review, let me see a few WEI table examples. At your level you are not going to benefit yourself by leaving one of your balls frozen onto one of your opponent's balls.

Safety play is important when you cannot run out the rack and you must really LOCK up your opponent so that they cannot hit any of their balls, let alone make one of their balls.
JoeyA
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
Colin, the very first thing I do after the break shot is to scan the table looking for the most troublesome balls. Balls, which if not moved or "shaken" as Buddy Halls says, will become BIG trouble in the end game. When I spot these ball(s), my very first shot is dedicated to moving those balls so that they can be run during my first inning. If the ball(s) cannot be moved on the first shot, I play shape to get on the next ball (and so on) so that I can break out the trouble balls. This is probably the most important thing in eight ball for a person to learn, IMHO. You may already know this and are looking for patterns to run out. If you have some specific instances that you would like for me to review, let me see a few WEI table examples. At your level you are not going to benefit yourself by leaving one of your balls frozen onto one of your opponent's balls.

Safety play is important when you cannot run out the rack and you must really LOCK up your opponent so that they cannot hit any of their balls, let alone make one of their balls.
JoeyA
JoeyA
Click to expand...

Hi Joey,
Yes, the majority of my thinking is set on creating the most realistic patterns for shaking out balls, cleaning up, but often the layout is just not very favorable.

Often the reason is that the CB is in a terrible starting position...no good first shot. Stripes or solids may be pretty well open for running out, but the first shot may be just a 20-30% chance, or I do not have a shot on the balls I want.

I guess the question is quite general, and a lot of table diagrams would help to generate some ideas. I'll see if I can get some time to do this later...the Wei table diagrams were slowing up my computer last night.

But this thread has still generated some really good suggestions.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
Often the reason is that the CB is in a terrible starting position...no good first shot. Stripes or solids may be pretty well open for running out, but the first shot may be just a 20-30% chance, or I do not have a shot on the balls I want.
Click to expand...
Colin, if the table is still open and you have a really bad layout, I would try to see play a safety and hand the table back over to your opponent.

If you play one pocket or straight pool, sometimes the safety skills you've developed playing those games can come in handy in 8-ball. It would probably help to see some WEI diagrams of what you're having difficulty with. :)
 
TheOne said:
Probably a good idea to post a few table layouts colin, you might find yourself answering your own questions though as you draw them. You know my feelings, I think in the rules you are playing you can probably afford a couple of attempts to break out balls but every layout is so different. If it really is a dire layout then youve just got to look at the best 2/3 way shots, with the aboloute main priority of getting the cb safe. If its hard to get a snooker dont forget the option of playing off your own ball and leaving the cb frozen to your opponents ball pref in a corner not too close to the rail though. Given that they have to hit a rail this can often be a great safe and result in a tactic advantage and control of the table.

Another difference with UK rules as Im sure you noticed is that in the UK you would put your own ball in front of your opponents. Where as its probably better to do the reverse in these rules esp if you leave the combination. This makes it tough for them to get position but also gives you options of playing the combo and leaving a safe/snooker.

Of course playing a carom to push the 8 ball close to your own ball near a pocket is still a strong shot like in uk rules because of course they can't use the 8 ball to make the carom. I'm sure you know the score, and I'm sure you watched enough matches in Vegas to know the shots. (oh forgot the stip clubs! ;))
Click to expand...

Some good tips...thanks!

As you say, layouts can be so different that a very creative shot or series of shots may be required. I'm just trying to think through the topic a bit, improve my recognition.

As an old mentor once said, a good player may see 10 reasonable shot options, while the beginner just sees two or three. It just takes experience and brain training to recognize them and sort out the smartest option. At the moment, in some of these situations I feel I am not seeing all the options and not sorting through them in my mind quickly enough. We can't afford to always take 5 minutes in a game to analyse a table like we can here.

In English pool it is almost automatic for me, but this game presents a new challenge. Knowing when to hold (on to the runout) and when to fold (go safe), when to sacrifice a blocking ball early to increase the odds of going out and when to leave it in place so as to make it hard for the opponent to finish should some critical shots go awry. These kind of decisions are crucial, and if the pockets on these tables continue to tighten as we are expecting, more and more strategical situations will arise. So instead of going for the clearance 80-90% of the time, it could become 70% of the time. Making 30% or more of the games strategical in nature.

I'll try to get some diagrams up for discussion later, but trying to get some practice in for now. Am hoping some others will set up some diagram examples of situations they have confronted and found difficulties with, or good solutions to.

Colin
 
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