8-ball tactic scenario

[Colin Colenso]

Yep, I was looking for getting some more input and see what other players think when they face a little bit awkward end game situation. I know I got lucky, but the point was that I didn't want to play a stupid shot and hand over the game to my opponent. As it seems in major tournaments, sometimes the pressure gets to you and you make stupid shots. Apparently that happened to my opponent or he just wasn't familiar with this kind of tactics. His facial expressions also revealed that he was a little bit lost when I started making intentional fouls. He probably expected me to break up the cluster hoping to get lucky and hand him the game

I think this is a great end game strategy to talk about.

There are many matches where we have the opportunity to tie the black or last opponent's ball up this way.

Taking this case, at what stage would we begin playing for a black vs our own ball for the end game and what are the percentages for either winning from that position with BIH.

And are we better off separating the balls a bit...as I mentioned bumping the 6 in a couple of my strategy suggestions so that I could get a shot on it with BIH or if the opponent slips up on safety.

Would like some opinions from experienced players, or those with good strategy minds.

 

[mjantti]

Wow. Just what I thought was the worst move possible.


My goodness. His shot was the worst thing possible. Mikko, I have to say that your shot wouldn't/shouldn't work. But, I'm glad you won.

Fred

You had something else in mind ? Just curious...


Yes, I was dead and buried, but as I told here earlier, I gave my opponent a chance to make a mess of it. And he did... I'm glad he did

 

[chefjeff]

Imo, your opponent went for the breakout too soon, especially since you (correctly) put his 11 up table on the end rail. If I were him, I'd have played a safety back to you, putting the 11 closer to the trouble balls. Then I'd have kept you on your back until I had a high percentage opening.

Ya got lucky. But...you're right about not giving away the game. Make 'em earn it! Good job hanging in there.

8-ball can be a grinding game. I've seen up to 20 safeties played in situations similar to this. Usually, the mentally weaker player is the first to do something stupid.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Cornerman]

You had something else in mind ? Just curious...

Yup. I put them up already. And ChefJeff echos my thoughts. Because you put the 11-ball up table, he is now in an "up and down" situation, and you can't bury him, behind your 6-ball if the opportunity arose. You actually left him slightly stronger than he was earlier.

As Jeff says, he shouldn't have gone for the breakout, but rather started a moving game. A normal strategy would be to move the 13-ball either while getting distance from the 6-ball. Whatever the case, he should be aware of the soft one-rail kick to the 6-ball.

I figure he was 3 or 4 innings away, but he tried to get you in one.

For you, if the 13-ball lay such that he truly had a tough shot trying to break out the cluster, then potting the 11-ball is an even stronger play. You have more opportunities to soft-kick at the 6-ball if you can leave his last ball up table on the ensuing safety battle because he doesn't have another ball to be "up and down."

Fred

 

[Colin Colenso]

Yup. I put them up already. And ChefJeff echos my thoughts. Because you put the 11-ball up table, he is now in an "up and down" situation, and you can't bury him, behind your 6-ball if the opportunity arose. You actually left him slightly stronger than he was earlier.

As Jeff says, he shouldn't have gone for the breakout, but rather started a moving game. A normal strategy would be to move the 13-ball either while getting distance from the 6-ball. Whatever the case, he should be aware of the soft one-rail kick to the 6-ball.

I figure he was 3 or 4 innings away, but he tried to get you in one.

For you, if the 13-ball lay such that he truly had a tough shot trying to break out the cluster, then potting the 11-ball is an even stronger play. You have more opportunities to soft-kick at the 6-ball if you can leave his last ball up table on the ensuing safety battle because he doesn't have another ball to be "up and down."

Fred

So Fred, would you have played the 2 rails to 6 ball to hook the opponent after he left his 11 over the pocket?

To me seems like about a 50-50% chance of a getting the hook, which should leave the player on the 6-ball with a 60-40 (at least) advantage.

 

[lewdo26]

I probably wouldn't have gone for it, but seems to me, his best agressive move after your first intentional was this shot:

START(
%FH7Z8%HJ1Z8%Kq8V6%MI1K0%Pa4J8%WC7[3%XG7Y8%]H5X6%^I1L0%eB4a4

)END

and not the breakout... Surprised no one has mentioned it. Is it totally out of the question???

 

[Cornerman]

So Fred, would you have played the 2 rails to 6 ball to hook the opponent after he left his 11 over the pocket?

Give me the scenario again. In Mikko scenario, I would have pocketed his 11-ball.

To me seems like about a 50-50% chance of a getting the hook, which should leave the player on the 6-ball with a 60-40 (at least) advantage.

I think that once the 11-ball is off the table, the percentages go to 50-50 regardless of what the opponent does.

Fred

 

[mjantti]

You really would have tried to make the 11-ball from the original position ? I didn't have the guts to try to thin in the corner. If I'd left a hanger, the rack would've been certainly his, because he'd have a certain insurance ball on his break with the 13-ball. I think the original layout was even tougher to make the 11.

 

[sixpack]

Yep, I agree. He had a possibility there, but I think he was afraid of the scratch in the corner if he'd miss the 6-8 package. The pockets were huuuuge and the scratch was definitely on. Maybe he had trouble controlling the rock on a brand new cloth, I always do, it's so rare to have a chance to play on new cloth.

Even if he scratches on this shot, it's not the end of the world, he still had the 13 near a pocket and you would have to shoot the 6 or give him BIH again. It would have been difficult for you to make a legal shot and get safe where the 13 was. IF he was a good player, he could have played for BIH on the 8 by putting you in position to make his balls and not shoot the 6. So long as he makes the 11, it's okay if he breaks out the cluster or scratches.

With those two balls (6&8) if I had BIH, I would be happier being on the 6-ball than the 8-ball. The 6-ball player is in a better position to win the game. With BIH you could leave the CB behind the 6 and move the 8 down past the side pocket. If the other player executes a good hit, they will leave the ball on that end of the table and you will have a fairly easy shot on the 6 to try and get shap on the 8. Something like this maybe would be about the best the kicking player could hope for:

START(
%FH8Z6%Hr7V2%Kt6\5%MB5B7%Ph9T6%Uh3Z1%VW7C9%Wi0V4%Xi1Z3%YW0D5
%ZG0Z6%]q0V9%^j1Z6%eC5a6
)END

Cheers,
RC

 

[Cornerman]

You really would have tried to make the 11-ball from the original position ? .

Aiming systems, anyone?

Risk vs. reward. You're already on the low percentage as the balls lay, so nothing worse can come of it if you hang the ball. If you remove the 11-ball, it looks like your percentage increase significantly

If, instead, you remove the 13-ball, is breaking the cluster out by pocketing the 11-ball any higher percentage to break up and get a shot on the 8-ball (as compared to leaving him the 13-ball)?

Fred

 

[Colin Colenso]

Give me the scenario again. In Mikko scenario, I would have pocketed his 11-ball.




I think that once the 11-ball is off the table, the percentages go to 50-50 regardless of what the opponent does.

Fred

Here is the scenario,
The guy just laid the 11 ball over the pocket. Would you play this snooker attempt as diagrammed below?

 

[Cornerman]

Here is the scenario,
The guy just laid the 11 ball over the pocket. Would you play this snooker attempt as diagrammed below?

Yes. That or something similar. At this point, with the solid have the advantage, I think. That's the importance of getting one ball off the table, and then getting some separation.

Fred

 

[lewdo26]

Aiming systems, anyone?

Risk vs. reward. You're already on the low percentage as the balls lay, so nothing worse can come of it if you hang the ball. If you remove the 11-ball, it looks like your percentage increase significantly

If, instead, you remove the 13-ball, is breaking the cluster out by pocketing the 11-ball any higher percentage to break up and get a shot on the 8-ball (as compared to leaving him the 13-ball)?

Fred

I don't know if Mikko's first shot was a mistake. But pocketing the *13 ball* also seems strong. For two reasons:

1) The breakout is not easy using the 11. The diagrammed layout suggests the tangent line off the 11 points above the 8. In other words, he'd have to break the 8 out going *through* the 11 rather than glancing off it, which makes it harder to judge;

2) The 13 ball is optimumly placed for the carom I suggested earlier, so eliminating it would take out that agressive option;

The way I see it, Mikko's first intentional is a more conservative approach; while pocketing the 13 forces matters to a swifter conclusion; its a gamble. Either the breakout works for the other guy or it doesn't. At any rate solids figures to lose, *unless* the guy plays what he played in response to Mikko's first intentional foul.

 

[lewdo26]

Fred,

I have a question. Your one up, one down rule... Does it apply here? I mean, there's nothing going on uptable. I thought having a ball on either end of the table was favorable primarily when your opponent also has balls in that area and is forced to kick in that direction.

 

[Cornerman]

I don't know if Mikko's first shot was a mistake. But pocketing the *13 ball* also seems strong. For two reasons:

1) The breakout is not easy using the 11. The diagrammed layout suggests the tangent line off the 11 points above the 8. In other words, he'd have to break the 8 out going *through* the 11 rather than glancing off it, which makes it harder to judge;

2) The 13 ball is optimumly placed for the carom I suggested earlier, so eliminating it would take out that agressive option;

The way I see it, Mikko's first intentional is a more conservative approach; while pocketing the 13 forces matters to a swifter conclusion; its a gamble. Either the breakout works for the other guy or it doesn't. At any rate solids figures to lose, *unless* the guy plays what he played in response to Mikko's first intentional foul.

Excellent summary. That's how I saw it. I would have thought the 13-ball was a good spot for breaking out the cluster, but since the opponent gaffed it, it mustn't have laid all that greatly.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Fred,

I have a question. Your one up, one down rule... Does it apply here? I mean, there's nothing going on uptable. I thought having a ball on either end of the table was favorable primarily when your opponent also has balls in that area and is forced to kick in that direction.

I think it applies to the stripes. I think it applies not so much how I detailed one up, one down before (off the safety), but it increases stripes options in breaking out.

Maybe it's not the one up one down strategy, but instead "one near and one far" from the cluster. One near the 6-ball (to prevent the soft kick safety) and one away from the cluster, as an "insurance ball" after breaking out the pack.

Uh oh, I need to add another guide rule to my Idiot's Guide.

With two balls "up and away" on the table, there might be the option of breaking the pack from below (say, off the 13-ball) or from above (off the 11-ball which might be uptable). From above has the attraction of pocketing the 6 ball without letting the 8-ball fly, while playing position on the 13-ball.



Fred

 

[lewdo26]

I think it applies to the stripes. I think it applies not so much how I detailed one up, one down before (off the safety), but it increases stripes options in breaking out.

Maybe it's not the one up one down strategy, but instead "one near and one far" from the cluster. One near the 6-ball (to prevent the soft kick safety) and one away from the cluster, as an "insurance ball" after breaking out the pack.

Uh oh, I need to add another guide rule to my Idiot's Guide.

With two balls "up and away" on the table, there might be the option of breaking the pack from below (say, off the 13-ball) or from above (off the 11-ball which might be uptable). From above has the attraction of pocketing the 6 ball without letting the 8-ball fly, while playing position on the 13-ball.



Fred

Breaking out from above would be risky unless Mikko's opponent moved the 11 near the lower side pocket (as we see it in the diagram) first... of course, Mikko then would have the option to take it out again. If the 11 is all the way uptable, an attempted breakout could miss the 8 altogether and stripes advantage would go up in smoke.

But I do understand your concept, thanks.

btw, Idiot's Guide??? Fred, I'm just trying to learn a little bit about the game, be easy on me, ok?

 

[Cornerman]

btw, Idiot's Guide??? Fred, I'm just trying to learn a little bit about the game, be easy on me, ok?

LOL!!! For my teammates, I always lay out the same 8-10 general sayings, so I started to call them "Fred's Cardinal Rules." Then I started calling them "Fred's Idiot's Guide for 8-ball," or simply "Fred's Idiot Guide."

Fred

 

[lewdo26]

LOL!!! For my teammates, I always lay out the same 8-10 general sayings, so I started to call them "Fred's Cardinal Rules." Then I started calling them "Fred's Idiot's Guide for 8-ball," or simply "Fred's Idiot Guide."

Fred

Ok. Let us know when you'll EZ-publish it!

 

[bruin70]

Aiming systems, anyone?

Risk vs. reward. You're already on the low percentage as the balls lay, so nothing worse can come of it if you hang the ball. If you remove the 11-ball, it looks like your percentage increase significantly

If, instead, you remove the 13-ball, is breaking the cluster out by pocketing the 11-ball any higher percentage to break up and get a shot on the 8-ball (as compared to leaving him the 13-ball)?

Fred

if you drop the 11, he can put the cb(BIH) anywhere he wants to get the angle he wants on the 13 and break up the 6/8. if you do as miiko shows. he drops the 11, but has to position right to get the angle he wants. you can only hope he gets bad position on the 11