8 ball vs 9 ball

[WobblyStroke]

Clusters and messy tables are the equalizer (heh) for me when playing stronger players, at least in our league. In 8-ball, when I play the guys that are much better shooters than me (but not up the level of the top shooters, this doesn't bother those guys), they struggle when the table is a mess. I'll break from the side every time then, cuz it rarely spreads out the table for me. I can work around stuff, and it slows those guys down some.

I think that's part of what draws me to 8-ball more than 9-ball. I enjoy the position play game. Of course, if I could run more balls, more often, I would probably have a different opinion

I knew an older gentleman once who would torture non-runout players and lower level runout players alike. He'd just bunt balls around, leaving them tough while positioning his balls for an easy run when he was good and ready to run. He'd make clusters and just refuse to touch them, leaving them for his opponent to break out. His entire game seemed to be organized around the mantra, "I bet you can't run out from here". And he was usually right. He might pick off some of his balls along the way as he massaged the balls around the table and tactically killed his less patient opponents. At the end, he'd have a few hangers and the 8 ball with his opponent in a make a tough run or lose spot. It was very entertaining to watch but not all that fun to play against. He'd routinely destroy guys at 8b that he wouldn't have any shot at all against at 9b.

 

[gregcantrall]

I knew an older gentleman once who would torture non-runout players and lower level runout players alike. He'd just bunt balls around, leaving them tough while positioning his balls for an easy run when he was good and ready to run. He'd make clusters and just refuse to touch them, leaving them for his opponent to break out. His entire game seemed to be organized around the mantra, "I bet you can't run out from here". And he was usually right. He might pick off some of his balls along the way as he massaged the balls around the table and tactically killed his less patient opponents. At the end, he'd have a few hangers and the 8 ball with his opponent in a make a tough run or lose spot. It was very entertaining to watch but not all that fun to play against. He'd routinely destroy guys at 8b that he wouldn't have any shot at all against at 9b.

Sounds like some of my earliest cheap 8 ball lessons at $2 a game. At The South Hill Saloon in Puyallup. Elmer Fudd looking guy.
Sometimes it's easy to underestimate a players skill level at 9 ball when you have seen him deploy tactics in 8 ball. Change the game is always an option.
Another 8 ball lesson that I paid $40 for started with me getting ahead $40 playing $5 nineball. Then Jim Ward told his son to change the game to 8 ball for $10 or surrender. I took the offer and ended up paying for the lesson.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I knew an older gentleman once who would torture non-runout players and lower level runout players alike. He'd just bunt balls around, leaving them tough while positioning his balls for an easy run when he was good and ready to run. He'd make clusters and just refuse to touch them, leaving them for his opponent to break out. His entire game seemed to be organized around the mantra, "I bet you can't run out from here". And he was usually right. He might pick off some of his balls along the way as he massaged the balls around the table and tactically killed his less patient opponents. At the end, he'd have a few hangers and the 8 ball with his opponent in a make a tough run or lose spot. It was very entertaining to watch but not all that fun to play against. He'd routinely destroy guys at 8b that he wouldn't have any shot at all against at 9b.

If this isn't how you play 8 ball I've been doing it wrong for years
Run when you can, put soldiers in fighting position if you can't.

 

[tomatoshooter]

This is also the reason that we struggle against better players. They aren't leaving you any gravy shots.

I usually struggle against weaker players. The better players miss but they were trying to get the cue ball somewhere useful. The weaker players can't leave the cue ball any place decent. It's like being stuck behind a motorhome on a mountain road, or trying to wrestle somebody seatbelted into a forklift. Sooner or later the good player will miss and leave me a shot, but I have no idea how the pudknockers manage to be so obstructive.

I have occasionally played guys that manage to leave me tough every time, but honestly, I have more trouble with the hacks.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Agreed, and that's where I struggle a bit as a beginner. My cue ball control is still a work in progress. I just played 10 racks of my own format of run the table and I averaged about one miss per game. The photo I attached shows you how I rack them, and after that it's just make all your solids, and then sink the eight ball as if it were a game of 8 ball. I really noticed my cue ball control being a struggle and getting out of position is not uncommon for me.

I like putting all the balls on the table and shooting all of one group. I used to play games against myself but realized they kept getting easier ass the balls were removed. With all the balls on the table, shooting only stripes gets harder. With just one group like you are doing, it's good because you can find and execute patterns, and if you get a shot at the table after your opponent clears most of the balls off, you will be ready to punish them. With all the balls on the table you will have to learn maneuvering in tight spaces.

I guess my point is that there's a common finesse in 8 ball that rarely occurs in rotation. I think most lose perspective on the finesse in 8 ball because in most cases there's a back up offensive plan that doesn't exist in rotation.

8 ball will give your short position game a workout that 9 ball won't. If you are running from the break, 8 ball gets harder, 9 ball gets easier. The back offensive plan can change things. In a way, you can often play position to maximize your options instead of trying to play perfect position for the next ball.

 

[tomatoshooter]

he massaged the balls around the table and tactically killed his less patient opponents.

Those are always tough for me. Somehow I always wind up having to break up the cluster. Part of it is that I play an aggressive game, and while I'm not at that level yet, at the higher levels I don't think the obstructive strategy is as effective because your opponent can usually get out. The other difficulty is that I can't find a way to practice defensive strategies by myself.

 

[BasementDweller]

The thing I don'like about 8 ball is the penalty for a failed runout is too great -- pretty much loss of game. I guess it's the same in 9 ball if you hang-up the 9, but it doesn't feel the same. If you mess up your runout, a good safety in 9 ball can still win you the rack.

I think scoring 8 ball like some of the leagues do in their tournaments smooths out this huge penalty for the failed runouts. Like getting a 10-0 when you break and run, but you can still get 7 if you hook yourself on the 8. This seems to be a truer representation of what's actually happening on the table in a short race.

I like um all though.

 

[The_JV]

The thing I don'like about 8 ball is the penalty for a failed runout is too great -- pretty much loss of game. I guess it's the same in 9 ball if you hang-up the 9, but it doesn't feel the same. If you mess up your runout, a good safety in 9 ball can still win you the rack.

That's why 8 ball is actually the harder game... People usually just get hung up on the multitude of insurance policies 8 ball offers early on as making it easier.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Those are always tough for me. Somehow I always wind up having to break up the cluster. Part of it is that I play an aggressive game, and while I'm not at that level yet, at the higher levels I don't think the obstructive strategy is as effective because your opponent can usually get out. The other difficulty is that I can't find a way to practice defensive strategies by myself.

Ye it's a level of development akin to getting past a pusher in tennis (a guy that just gets everything back weakly betting you hit more errors than winners). Over 20 years ago now as a young shotmaker it would grind my gears to no end that old codgers who couldn't do half the things with the CB I could were just slapping me around in 8b. They preyed on my aggressiveness and runout mentality. They made the outs tough and I always took the challenge. Then a breakout would go wrong or I'd miss a tougher shot than I shoulda shot at and they would proceed to bunt their balls in calmly rolling the rock around. They taught me a lot.

The key to finally beating these guys wasn't getting even better at judging breakouts, making banks, and becoming adept at tickies off their blocker balls (tho this helps). It was just a mental adjustment not unlike the one needed to deal with pushers in tennis. You can't get overly aggressive. Don't generally start runs you don't intend on finishing as these guys will torture you when they have twice as many balls on the table as you do. So I started doing things like playing safe while firing a ball into a cluster instead of firing a ball into a pocket and sending the cue ball at the cluster. I never went into a cluster without an insurance ball. Little stuff like that. Once my patience and tactics came within shouting distance of those guys, my superior shooting took care of the rest. They still played their "bet you can't run out" game and they started losing the bet more often than not...but not until I stopped going for every run out and actually picked my spots more carefully.

 

[philly]

I play all of the games.
8 ball, 9ball, 10 ball, one pocket, 14.1, back pocket 9 ball, last pocket 8 ball, etc.
The one true thing about all of the games is that the purpose of all of the games is not necessarily to run out,
but rather the purpose of the game is to win the game.
When that finally sinks in you become a smarter better player.
JMHO.

 

[SeniorTom]

Ye it's a level of development akin to getting past a pusher in tennis (a guy that just gets everything back weakly betting you hit more errors than winners). Over 20 years ago now as a young shotmaker it would grind my gears to no end that old codgers who couldn't do half the things with the CB I could were just slapping me around in 8b. They preyed on my aggressiveness and runout mentality. They made the outs tough and I always took the challenge. Then a breakout would go wrong or I'd miss a tougher shot than I shoulda shot at and they would proceed to bunt their balls in calmly rolling the rock around. They taught me a lot.

The key to finally beating these guys wasn't getting even better at judging breakouts, making banks, and becoming adept at tickies off their blocker balls (tho this helps). It was just a mental adjustment not unlike the one needed to deal with pushers in tennis. You can't get overly aggressive. Don't generally start runs you don't intend on finishing as these guys will torture you when they have twice as many balls on the table as you do. So I started doing things like playing safe while firing a ball into a cluster instead of firing a ball into a pocket and sending the cue ball at the cluster. I never went into a cluster without an insurance ball. Little stuff like that. Once my patience and tactics came within shouting distance of those guys, my superior shooting took care of the rest. They still played their "bet you can't run out" game and they started losing the bet more often than not...but not until I stopped going for every run out and actually picked my spots more carefully.

Great post! I am one of those individuals who runs off 5-6 balls then leave a wide open table for my opponent to run out when I miss on my final object ball, or two. I know this is happening but I have to learn how to play safe better. I got to trust that it will work.

 

[BasementDweller]

That's why 8 ball is actually the harder game... People usually just get hung up on the multitude of insurance policies 8 ball offers early on as making it easier.

Depends on how you define "harder". Yes -- it requires more thinking, but the execution demands of the rotation games is so much greater that I think 9 ball is harder. I know if my life depended on me playing pool in front of millions of people and to stay alive the only thing I had to do was not look like an idiot -- I would want to play 8 ball.

 

[The_JV]

<snip>....the execution demands of the rotation games is so much greater that I think 9 ball is harder....</snip>

I don't subscribe to that logic. I believe accurately positioning the CB around several obstacles into tight zones more difficult than swinging it around a few rails and funneling into larger zones, (comparatively speaking).

Most uninitiated believe 14.1 is an easy game as well.

 

[gregcantrall]

I don't subscribe to that logic. I believe accurately positioning the CB around several obstacles into tight zones more difficult than swinging it around a few rails and funneling into larger zones, (comparatively speaking).

Most uninitiated believe 14.1 is an easy game as well.

Watching Ray Martin playing 9 ball at the Sands Reno in the late '80s, made the straight pool background obvious. His preference for the short precise routes was a treat to watch.

 

[philly]

I don't subscribe to that logic. I believe accurately positioning the CB around several obstacles into tight zones more difficult than swinging it around a few rails and funneling into larger zones, (comparatively speaking).

Most uninitiated believe 14.1 is an easy game as well.

I agree in a sense.
14.1 and 8 ball are games where you have to see patterns while not moving balls you do not want to move and moving balls that you want to move and discerning which are which.

 

[BasementDweller]

W

I don't subscribe to that logic. I believe accurately positioning the CB around several obstacles into tight zones more difficult than swinging it around a few rails and funneling into larger zones, (comparatively speaking).

Most uninitiated believe 14.1 is an easy game as well.

You're just comparing the positional demands, I'm including the pocketing demands. Putting the ball in the hole is the most important thing in my book. Doing that in 8 ball tends to be easier than 9 ball. While you definitely have to fit in tight quarters playing 8 ball, recognizing good patterns helps eliminate a lot of the perceived difficulty, especially on a big table. 8 ball is way easier on a big table in my book. When I watch the big boys play, it's stop shot, stop shot, stop shot. I'm only exaggerating a bit but there's a reason the Chinese aren't playing it on American style tables.

Guess it all boils down to one's cue ball control vs pocketing ratio. I've always had a better cue ball than players at my skill level so the simple demands of pocketing balls and cueing straight has been my nemesis more so than working through an 8 ball pattern.

 

[Cornerman]

10ball was invented by those who hated losing racks of 9 ball to those who they thought weren't superior players. Literally every rule in 10ball that separates it from the 9 ball version is scripted to eliminate the "luck" out of the game. Once you get to a certain level of proficiency though. Calling shots and the additional ball really mean nothing. It seems the additional rules rarely come into play.

I'm really indifferent to what game I play. However 10b seems to be the game of action these days. People just seem more comfortable betting into a game where the benefit of luck is at a minimum. At the spd I'm currently playing at/with. A rack of 10 ball take no longer than a 9.

The only advantage a 9 baller has over an 8 ball specialist is a power stroke with heavy english. That's generally something that doesn't pop up much when running racks of 8ball. The rest of 8ball makes it the more skilled game by a long shot.

You obviously mean “WPA 10-ball rules” was invented …. 10-ball was around long before the WPA rewrote the rules.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Great post! I am one of those individuals who runs off 5-6 balls then leave a wide open table for my opponent to run out when I miss on my final object ball, or two. I know this is happening but I have to learn how to play safe better. I got to trust that it will work.

A student I have with a lot of potential, coming up on a year playing now, is at this level in 8b. Sure he runs out sometimes, but often he clears up some balls and gets tough late because he either went for the run too early in the rack or failed to address his problem balls early enough in his run.

I think if you show a little more patience in when you go for the run and address your problems early in runs (or before trying to run by play more of a positioning game) you can power through this common plateau.

 

[The_JV]

You're just comparing the positional demands, I'm including the pocketing demands.

Positional demands are moot without potting demands. That's why I said all players have better potting then CB control. Placing your position on a dime after a miss means nothing. Not because you don't get to shoot again, but because you tangent and control is based on a falsehood. Yes imo positional demands are tougher in 8ball. However that's rooted in being able to pot effectively and work the pocket to gain angles that 8 ball navigating requires.

Putting the ball in the hole is the most important thing in my book. Doing that in 8 ball tends to be easier than 9 ball. While you definitely have to fit in tight quarters playing 8 ball, recognizing good patterns helps eliminate a lot of the perceived difficulty, especially on a big table.

I agree to a point, but a little confused... I presume your opinion of 9 ball being tougher is because of the "pocketing demands". However you then say 8 ball is easier on a big table. Again I'll make an assumption and presume because of a lack of congestion. A good break on a 'big' table generally translates to an open table and longer potting because of that spacing. So should not a strong break in 8 ball make the game closer to difficulty as compared to 9 ball...? Kinda spinning here...lol

Guess it all boils down to one's cue ball control vs pocketing ratio. I've always had a better cue ball than players at my skill level so the simple demands of pocketing balls and cueing straight has been my nemesis more so than working through an 8 ball pattern.

Again, CB control is moot without pocketing so I struggle with the notion that your CB is better than the avg for your level but your pocketing is somehow weaker...?

I don't mean to be argumentative. Just seems counter intuitive to me. Now if you were to say that you table IQ is stronger than your physical ability. I'd fully grasp what you trying to say.

 

[tomatoshooter]

A good break on a 'big' table generally translates to an open table and longer potting because of that spacing.

Not necessarily. because the balls are spread all over the table, there will probably be one easily accessible for the cue ball and not far from a pocket, and there is a fair chance of the natural path of the cue ball intersecting another shot. If the balls aren't spread well, there may not be a path towards an easy shot, you may sink a ball in a corner pocket and have to leave the cue ball near the foot rail and cut a ball all the way to the other end of the table.