9-ball - One way to increase your chances of getting out

[cuetechasaurus]

Dave,
This is a VERY underutilized strategy in 8-ball (nudging your opponent's balls into bad places, while making your own balls, and opening your own clusters).

I was first exposed to this strategy by Brian Groce at an IPT tune-up event (see the thread http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=39813&highlight=Banger's for a re-hash of the event).

He broke the balls, and was forced to shoot stripes first (his only makeable shot). Unfortunately, stripes had 3 tough clusters and solids were completely open (roadmap runout should I get to the table). First shot, he pockets a ball, breaks a cluster open. Then makes a ball, nudges one of mine into a bad place. Makes another ball, opening another of his clusters. Then makes a ball nudging one of mine into a bad place. At the end of the rack he had run out for the win, and solids had 3 nasty, unmakeable clusters where once there had been a roadmap. I knew then I was in over my head.

Very often, shots like Flaco's above can be used in 8-ball to safely nudge an opponent's ball into a bad place; but only if we look for them.

I can imagine wanting to do that if, like you said, it's your first shot and you are forced to pick the difficult group, but continuing that for your next few shots, I don't understand. If your group is sitting in a fashion so that you can't run out, every ball of yours that you pocket is like taking a dagger and sticking it in your own back, even if you are tying up your opponent's balls as you go along. No matter how difficult both groups are, whoever has more balls on the table has a huge advantage even if they are un-runnable.

Or if your balls are runnable, even if you have a mickey-mouse out with all your balls conviently near a hole, even then, why would you want to take the risk of going into your opponents balls if you are gonna get out anyways? I think you should put all your eggs in one basket and focus on getting ou, rather than making your opponent's layout more difficult in case you miss. The "in case I miss" thought floating in your head is going to decrease your odds of running out, IMO.

BTW I'm only talking about 8-ball. In one-pocket I could totally understand using this logic.

 

[AZE]

Yup, thats some advanced thinking.

 

[steev]

I can imagine wanting to do that if, like you said, it's your first shot and you are forced to pick the difficult group, but continuing that for your next few shots, I don't understand. If your group is sitting in a fashion so that you can't run out, every ball of yours that you pocket is like taking a dagger and sticking it in your own back, even if you are tying up your opponent's balls as you go along. No matter how difficult both groups are, whoever has more balls on the table has a huge advantage even if they are un-runnable.

Or if your balls are runnable, even if you have a mickey-mouse out with all your balls conviently near a hole, even then, why would you want to take the risk of going into your opponents balls if you are gonna get out anyways? I think you should put all your eggs in one basket and focus on getting ou, rather than making your opponent's layout more difficult in case you miss. The "in case I miss" thought floating in your head is going to decrease your odds of running out, IMO.

BTW I'm only talking about 8-ball. In one-pocket I could totally understand using this logic.

that particular choice was made by Brian Groce, which means something a little different than to most folks. he's supposed to get out and was covering his a$$ on the way there.

-s

 

[Williebetmore]

The "in case I miss" thought floating in your head is going to decrease your odds of running out, IMO.

.

'Tech,
Steev hit the nail on the head; "In case I miss" is a thought that is probably foreign to most of the players involved in the event I described. Though I saw very few missed shots; the one's I did see were usually brutally difficult shots; and these top players just took it in stride. The only self-doubt in the room was in MY head.

I will also say that these players are supremely self-confident; but not FALSELY self-confident. Such confidence without the skill to back it up is just delusion. They were planning each individual shot within the limits of their ability; and such planning did not hinder their ball pocketing in any way.

Their advice to me is to plan the shot, execute it with your best stroke attempt, and accept the consequences. There is no "thinking about missing" or "thinking about the outcome of the match" involved in this type of play. Failing to get position during the runout occurs not infrequently; screwing up your opponents balls is always prudent if it costs nothing.

 

[Southpaw]

This is what you call Thinking 3 balls ahead. Made shape from the 4 to the 5 alot easier.

Southpaw

 

[DaveK]

I can imagine wanting to do that if, like you said, it's your first shot and you are forced to pick the difficult group, but continuing that for your next few shots, I don't understand. If your group is sitting in a fashion so that you can't run out, every ball of yours that you pocket is like taking a dagger and sticking it in your own back, even if you are tying up your opponent's balls as you go along. No matter how difficult both groups are, whoever has more balls on the table has a huge advantage even if they are un-runnable.

Or if your balls are runnable, even if you have a mickey-mouse out with all your balls conviently near a hole, even then, why would you want to take the risk of going into your opponents balls if you are gonna get out anyways? I think you should put all your eggs in one basket and focus on getting ou, rather than making your opponent's layout more difficult in case you miss. The "in case I miss" thought floating in your head is going to decrease your odds of running out, IMO.

BTW I'm only talking about 8-ball. In one-pocket I could totally understand using this logic.

In my case the only times I will do this are when the shape-risk is very low or the miss-risk is very high (and no easier safe). Also, the bump is an integral part of my shot-plan, so it's not like a 2-way shot where I will say to myself "no worries if you miss" (and I often do ) it's just part of the cue-ball path, more like a break-out shot (except this is an opponent-break-IN shot). I cannot comment on the pro game, but with my B game slowing down or demoralizing your opponent can be excellent insurance .... you'll know why if you read the thread I'm about to start

Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The shot itself isn't that special, but the concepts are:

(1) A ball that's off the rail by even an inch or two is vastly easier to use for position than one that's frozen to the rail.

(2) Ball-in-hand shouldn't be squandered.

(3) It takes practice to see opportunities.

pj
chgo

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

The shot itself isn't that special, but the concepts are:

(1) A ball that's off the rail by even an inch or two is vastly easier to use for position than one that's frozen to the rail.

(2) Ball-in-hand shouldn't be squandered.

(3) It takes practice to see opportunities.

pj
chgo

Well no, there's nothing overwhelmingly challenging about his BIH shot. However, IMHO reallygreatbrilliantamazingtowatch pool is in simplification - avoiding challenging shots and tight position plays. Interestingly, I don't even know if this shot was correct. I mean, it worked out great for him but I'm not sure, even after watching it played if I would choose to do it. However, the concept was very creative and such thoughts swirling around in your brain may lead you to reallygreatbrilliantamazingtowatch pool one day. That was the reason why I posted it.

 

[philw]

Well no, there's nothing overwhelmingly challenging about his BIH shot. However, IMHO reallygreatbrilliantamazingtowatch pool is in simplification - avoiding challenging shots and tight position plays. Interestingly, I don't even know if this shot was correct. I mean, it worked out great for him but I'm not sure, even after watching it played if I would choose to do it. However, the concept was very creative and such thoughts swirling around in your brain may lead you to reallygreatbrilliantamazingtowatch pool one day. That was the reason why I posted it.

This is a simple but effective shot to do as you said Jude, make the rack easier. Efren seems to find these things too. By the way Tony Rodriquez
used to play out of the Chicago Billiard Cafe in the "80's" I really enjoyed watching his game. I'm sure he wouldn't remember me but I'm glad to see he stills plays great and is doing ok. Philw

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Well no, there's nothing overwhelmingly challenging about his BIH shot. However, IMHO reallygreatbrilliantamazingtowatch pool is in simplification - avoiding challenging shots and tight position plays. Interestingly, I don't even know if this shot was correct. I mean, it worked out great for him but I'm not sure, even after watching it played if I would choose to do it. However, the concept was very creative and such thoughts swirling around in your brain may lead you to reallygreatbrilliantamazingtowatch pool one day. That was the reason why I posted it.

Right. That's also why I responded the way I did.

pj
chgo