9-ball vs 10-ball where are the big $$?

[Jason Robichaud]

9-ball/10-ball, which would be most popular or greatest possibility of higher payouts. I believe 9-ball should remain. The game isn’t the problem. If we look at sports with high purses like golf, tennis, snooker they all have something in common. Great names that dominated until a great rival came along. We like to watch what is considered perfection or greatness.

Look at golf with Palmer/Nicklaus. Where would golf be today without those guys? Now Tiger is dominating. If someone could win a Grand Slam of pool, how would that effect our sport? Maybe have someone win the World’s 5 years in a row like Stephen Hendry won the Embassy World Snooker (I believe they gave him the trophy. They felt it would never be repeated).

We need a great player in 9-ball that is clearly above the skill level of everyone else. I want to see something that people are not doing or haven’t done at any given poolroom. The average snooker player will play their entire life and not run a century break. Good players will run some, Great players will run centuries and a few perfect games (147 pts), Pros we envy.

What is a perfect game in 9-ball? Is breaking and running perfect? We see much lesser opponent’s break and run. They have done the following:

The break: miss cues, poor contact on the one, pocketed a ball. The cue ball travels around the table and lands perfect on his next ball.

Makes a couple balls, runs out of shape bangs into the pack and flukes a ball and keeps going.

Shape, what is that? Lets jump that ball and keep going.

Shape for the nine, no not required, they would just long bank it. Oops look, a double bank, thanks.

A perfect game they just broke and ran…

9-ball isn’t the problem, we just require change to the rules that will allow a great player to dominate.

Call pocket
Call safety
No 9 off break
You fluke a hook, no problem, I pass, keep shooting please. Why should your lack of skill be my disadvantage or allow you to win?

That is my take on achieving the popularity and money in this game.

 

[HittMan]

The break: miss cues, poor contact on the one, pocketed a ball. The cue ball travels around the table and lands perfect on his next ball.

Makes a couple balls, runs out of shape bangs into the pack and flukes a ball and keeps going.

Shape, what is that? Lets jump that ball and keep going.

Shape for the nine, no not required, they would just long bank it. Oops look, a double bank, thanks.

A perfect game they just broke and ran…

9-ball isn’t the problem, we just require change to the rules that will allow a great player to dominate.

Call pocket
Call safety
No 9 off break
You fluke a hook, no problem, I pass, keep shooting please. Why should your lack of skill be my disadvantage or allow you to win?

That is my take on achieving the popularity and money in this game.

In years past, we played "roll-out" or "two-shot-foul" but that wasn't good for the TV format, they said...it took too long. It was a game that favored the shot maker and the tactician.

You sound like a guy who is ready for one-pocket. Reduces the probability of lucking-in a ball to your advantage by about 6:1...AND...every shot has some impact on the outcome of the game...also easy to fine tune when you're matching-up...try it...you'll like it...clear advantage to the better player.

Not a game for TV though?

 

[Celtic]

We need a great player in 9-ball that is clearly above the skill level of everyone else. I want to see something that people are not doing or haven’t done at any given poolroom.

Yeah welcome to the problem that is 9-ball. The game is simply too easy for a single player to dominate in the fashion you see players dominating other sports. 9-ball is a game where any of the top 20 players in the world playing each other are a flip of a coin against one another because the difference in a race to 11 is as simple as making a ball on a single break. Look at the number of hill hill matches when playing alternate break and how many blowouts take place in winner breaks. A sure sign the game is too easy to run out for the top players.

In the sport of "coin flipping" it is real hard to get a single player dominating the "coin flipping" scene because to beat 10 other top "coin flippers" in a row every week to win a tournament takes alot of luck, not just "coin flipping" skill.

We have people who are heads above the rest, the cream is not rising to the top and dominating the sport because the sport can be dominated, period. For a sport to let the cream rise to the top it has to be sufficiently difficult that it can not be nearly mastered, and at this point many people in the world have pretty much mastered 9-ball to the point that winning or loosing comes down to the lag or some luck on the break.

 

[hobokenapa]

Luck

9-ball simply has to much of a luck factor as you get to the top pro level. Any one of 20-30 guys can win a tournament. Hendry was that much better at a game that has almost zero luck, same with Tiger. Other threads have discussed how to create a game that produces the best player (Earl's offense Straight Pool with ultra-tight pockets for example).

Snooker pros play on tables that regular snooker club members never play on. The pockets are so ultra-tight that regular members refuse to play on them. In fact, 2005 world championship runner-up Matthew Stevens had to take out his pro table from his snooker club because regular paying members found it way too difficult. 9-ball pros should play on tables with pockets so tight that one ball just fits into the pocket like snooker, and like regular English bar pool tables. None of this two balls can fit at one time nonesense. It's akin to make the hole in golf ten feet wide. Then every pro would get 15 birdies a round.

The game itself is great. The problem is that the playing conditions are so easy that is creates a level playing field at the very vey top level.

 

[sjm]

9-ball isn’t the problem, we just require change to the rules that will allow a great player to dominate.

Here are the rule changes needed:

1) take the other six balls out of the tray and rack all fifteen
2) switch to a safe break
3) all shots must be called, both ball and pocket
4) one point per ball pocketed
5) shoot unitl only one ball remains and then rerack the other fourteen
6) race to 150
7) tight pockets

I'm fine with THAT version of nine ball. The cream would surely rise to the top playing THAT version of nine ball.

 

[DaveK]

9-ball/10-ball, which would be most popular or greatest possibility of higher payouts. I believe 9-ball should remain. The game isn’t the problem. If we look at sports with high purses like golf, tennis, snooker they all have something in common. Great names that dominated until a great rival came along. We like to watch what is considered perfection or greatness.

I believe that a major reason that high purse sports are where they are is where they came from. Golf and tennis are 'country club' sports enjoyed by the rich, while pool is a smokey back-room game enjoyed by broke bums. This is an extreme representation, but you get the idea. So which one has more potential in an advertizing funded media system ?

There are no problems with the games, other than they change so often the sport has no continuity. It won't matter what you do to a game of pool, it will always be a game of pool, nothing there to fix in an attempt to gain massive paycheques.

As far as a great name to dominate, first it would be nice to knows who's #1, who's #2, etc., using a globally recognised ranking system. The current ones do not allow proper player comparisons. They remind me of that old country song about the '142nd fastest gun in the west'. How do they tell ?

Dave, who believes that pool may be a big paycheque pro sport when shuffleboard and darts are games of millionaires ... until then, enjoy what you've got, a beautiful game to play by cynics of all ages.

 

[Celtic]

Here are the rule changes needed:

1) take the other six balls out of the tray and rack all fifteen
2) switch to a safe break
3) all shots must be called, both ball and pocket
4) one point per ball pocketed
5) shoot unitl only one ball remains and then rerack the other fourteen
6) race to 150
7) tight pockets

I'm fine with THAT version of nine ball. The cream would surely rise to the top playing THAT version of nine ball.

My solution is close.

1) take the other six balls out of the tray and rack all fifteen
2) make the power break matter and do away with the soft break (which this game naturally does)
3) all shots (except the breakshot) must be called, both ball and pocket
4) one point per ball pocketed
5) must hit the lowest numbered ball on the table for a legal shot
6) race to 75
7) Same pocket size as is standard today
8) no jump cues

That game is easy to understand and plenty tough on todays standard equipment.

 

[Boro Nut]

Snooker pros play on tables that regular snooker club members never play on....9-ball pros should play on tables with pockets so tight that one ball just fits into the pocket like snooker...

Actually it's not that bad. The ball doesn't just fit, you do have about an inch and a quarter to play with.

The truth is that championship tables are ultra fast, not ultra tight. Most club tables around here have a full napped cloth for wear and tear and will play about 5 lengths (and some slower still). I hate them. You have to hit the ball much harder to get it to the postion you need. They are about average for pocket width. They are 80mm at the throat and 84mm at the fall. I think that's actually less than the 'tighter' championship tables. I measured them because I was convinced John Virgo was talking bollocks about how easy our pockets were in comparison.

Personally I love fast tables. They favour touch over cue power, and you learn to feather your shots and let the white ball do the work. You actually have much more control and accuracy if you know what you are doing. The first club I played for had a match table that played 9 lengths - brilliant for snooker, awful for billiards - and if you won the toss you always put the oponent in to break (to their surprise). They invariably played an excellent shot around the pack, back to the baulk cushion, and all the way back down the table to leave you an easy red.

The championship pockets are also cut to the correct radius, which can be much more of an impediment to potting a ball than the actual size of the pocket. You soon get to know the tables in any league which have the odd bastard pocket, which will not take a ball along the cushion at any speed because the radius is wrong. Every year we see balls rattle and drop in on the Crucible tables which some viewer then comments would never have dropped on their club table. Every year the commentators say the Crucible pockets are actually tighter. Every year they miss the point that a ball that far off would always be spat back out on our club tables.

The other factor is that they seem to shave the nap on the championship tables nowadays, which is a shame. This actually make potting easier. There didn't seem to be any deviation in playing slowly uptable to the centre pockets in this year's world championsip. On a proper table you would need to aim for the far knuckle for it to drift in, and you can actually bend a red around the pink into the middle pocket on a properly brushed and ironed table with just enough speed to reach.

Boro Nut

 

[vapoolplayer]

Here are the rule changes needed:

1) take the other six balls out of the tray and rack all fifteen
2) switch to a safe break
3) all shots must be called, both ball and pocket
4) one point per ball pocketed
5) shoot unitl only one ball remains and then rerack the other fourteen
6) race to 150
7) tight pockets

I'm fine with THAT version of nine ball. The cream would surely rise to the top playing THAT version of nine ball.

i think you may be onto something there.........although it looks really similar to a game that was played in the jurassic ages........

seriously though.....it is still above and beyond the ultimate test in pool. and would show everyone who the best "pool" player was.

vap

 

[Celtic]

seriously though.....it is still above and beyond the ultimate test in pool. and would show everyone who the best "pool" player was.

vap

I find straight pool is a far greater test of knowledge then skill. The best player is the one that has the best patterns and such more often then the best potter or shape player. Few shots in straight pool really test the players skill when it is played well by a person with alot of knowledge.