A 9-ball Brainteaser

[Jude Rosenstock]

I don't think everyone is grasping how much can go wrong with the breakout. Sure it looks easy, and sure you can hit it...but what do you really think you are going to do?

So much can go terribly wrong with just a hair of difference. If you execute it PERFECTLY and basically get the cue to stop right at the 8, you have a shot. Not a great shot, but it's not going to stop your run. A hair to the other side and you hook yourself, or a hair to the other side and you send the cue straight at the 5...possibly getting too close or a terrible angle. If you go rail first, that's even worse...then even successful breakouts result in being out in the middle banking the 5... This is the kind of situation that you learn from when you make the wrong decision hill-hill in a match...I'll take my chances leaving a safe. It's tight work down there; it's not like you're just pushing a ball out toward a pocket, you'd be pushing balls together and possibly off of rails all around where you are trying to put your cue ball!

"So much can go terribly wrong" is a big statement and simply not true. Terribly wrong is scratching or getting hooked. Everything else should be manageable.

In my break-out approach, I'm pocketing the 4-ball in the side-pocket, going off the side-rail and running into the 8-ball. My contact point on the side-rail is going to determine how I hit the 8 so I can make sure I don't get safe. My speed is going to determine how this cluster opens so I can be pretty certain not to hit it too hard or soft and as for losing my cueball and heading toward the 5, that's manageable. It's perfectly reasonable to assume I still get a shot and even if I don't, I won't be left safe and will have options that should still yield a win.

 

[seymore15074]

"So much can go terribly wrong" is a big statement and simply not true. Terribly wrong is scratching or getting hooked. Everything else should be manageable.

In my break-out approach, I'm pocketing the 4-ball in the side-pocket, going off the side-rail and running into the 8-ball. My contact point on the side-rail is going to determine how I hit the 8 so I can make sure I don't get safe. My speed is going to determine how this cluster opens so I can be pretty certain not to hit it too hard or soft and as for losing my cueball and heading toward the 5, that's manageable. It's perfectly reasonable to assume I still get a shot and even if I don't, I won't be left safe and will have options that should still yield a win.

Right, I agree with the terribly wrong part, a scratch isn't going to happen, but I still do not like this approach. Maybe it's just me, but I'm looking at the tangent line from pocketing the 4 ball, and thinking that I have to follow up (30 degree rule) and hit the rail in the right spot. Now, first of all, even getting to the exact spot that you want this shot from on the 4 might be a little off from the draw on the 3...then you are going to follow the cue ball forward to a tiny tiny target in order to get the right contact on the 8? That's some serious accuracy. It's not impossible, but you seem to be certain that you can do this time and time again and hit the 8 right where you want to. Just a little bit off and you are into some touble... Sure, THEN you can decide a backup plan, but I just wouldn't do it. Not this one. I'm all about break outs, but I can see this one screwing me a mile away...

Maybe it's the right shot for you, but I'm scared of it.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Right, I agree with the terribly wrong part, a scratch isn't going to happen, but I still do not like this approach. Maybe it's just me, but I'm looking at the tangent line from pocketing the 4 ball, and thinking that I have to follow up (30 degree rule) and hit the rail in the right spot. Now, first of all, even getting to the exact spot that you want this shot from on the 4 might be a little off from the draw on the 3...then you are going to follow the cue ball forward to a tiny tiny target in order to get the right contact on the 8? That's some serious accuracy. It's not impossible, but you seem to be certain that you can do this time and time again and hit the 8 right where you want to. Just a little bit off and you are into some touble... Sure, THEN you can decide a backup plan, but I just wouldn't do it. Not this one. I'm all about break outs, but I can see this one screwing me a mile away...

Maybe it's the right shot for you, but I'm scared of it.

I mean, that's one way to go about it. If I get too much angle on the 4 ball, I could hit the short rail first and use right spin and get an ideal break on the cluster. I don't have to get perfect.

 

[AngryPanda]

I disagree, everything is a calculated risk in what they feel is the best course of action for themselves. As SJM as always tell me, you always should take into account who you are playing, and how are they playing.

If you are playing Efren, do you really want to get into a safety battle?
if you like your chances then go for it. if not, then thats ok too.

My safety play stinks so I'd go for it......come to think of it, I not a consistent runout player either, so I'm going to have to pray

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I disagree, everything is a calculated risk in what they feel is the best course of action for themselves. As SJM as always says to me, you always should take into account who you playing, and how are they playing.

If you are playing Efren, do you really want to get into a safety battle?
if you like your chances then go for it. if not, then thats ok too.

My safety play stinks so I'd go for it......come to think of it, I not a consistent runout player either, so I'm going to have to pray

I'm not sure I know who you're disagreeing with but more importantly, who your opponent is should be a minimal consideration in general but especially with this shot. If your opponent can't hold a cue, you don't have to worry about what happens on the 4-ball and you can afford to be aggressive. If your opponent is a run-out player, you should really consider being aggressive because a safety battle here is not necessarily going to be lock-tight and predictable.

 

[LILJOHN30]

my out

Take the three in the corner put the four in the side and take the rock off the side rail to the bottom rail.I would put the five in the corner under the six eight cluster.If I had the angle I would follow the five and hit the eight setting up for the six,If I had a bad angle I could play the five and bounce up table for the six bank.This out with the bank leads to harder shape on the seven but

CueTable Help

 

[seymore15074]

I'm not sure I know who you're disagreeing with but more importantly, who your opponent is should be a minimal consideration in general but especially with this shot. If your opponent can't hold a cue, you don't have to worry about what happens on the 4-ball and you can afford to be aggressive. If your opponent is a run-out player, you should really consider being aggressive because a safety battle here is not necessarily going to be lock-tight and predictable.

I wouldn't take my opponent into consideration here, either. I can see this situation going either way, though.

At first here, I started thinking that the break out isn't lock-tight and predictable either, but if they were both EVEN in that aspect, aggression is at least taking a shot a getting the game whereas a safety is probably just a safety.

I think I'm biased toward safeties or something. Typically, I play safeties a lot. I don't consider myself a run-out player, but that doesn't mean I don't run out. On a few occassions I've ran out, broke and ran, broke and ran, broke and ran, and then ran half a rack up to a nice safety. I've never ran beyond that in a single inning...I either miss or back down and play a safety!

Good thread.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Take the three in the corner put the four in the side and take the rock off the side rail to the bottom rail.I would put the five in the corner under the six eight cluster.If I had the angle I would follow the five and hit the eight setting up for the six,If I had a bad angle I could play the five and bounce up table for the six bank.This out with the bank leads to harder shape on the seven but doable.

Wait, why is there a rock on the side rail? "Bounce" up table. How many bounces?

 

[LILJOHN30]

2 rocks

Wait, why is there a rock on the side rail? "Bounce" up table. How many bounces?

Thats where you would try to get the rock after the five.

 

[LILJOHN30]

bounce

Wait, why is there a rock on the side rail? "Bounce" up table. How many bounces?

You would bounce 1 rail off the foot rail if your shape was High and take the bank.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Thats where you would try to get the rock after the five.

Whoa, there are TWO ROCKS and things are bouncing??? What game is this?

 

[AngryPanda]

I'm not sure I know who you're disagreeing with but more importantly, who your opponent is should be a minimal consideration in general but especially with this shot. If your opponent can't hold a cue, you don't have to worry about what happens on the 4-ball and you can afford to be aggressive. If your opponent is a run-out player, you should really consider being aggressive because a safety battle here is not necessarily going to be lock-tight and predictable.

I disagree with Seymore. I dont think there is a singular correct answer.
The safety, is the choice Seymore would make and it is the right one for him. The breakout is the choice for you because you feel you can run out. the Breakout is the right choice for me because I dont think I can hit the safety shot.

In Seymore's case however he needs to factor in his opponent. If his opponent is a weak kicker, then its a no-brainer.

 

[Aaron_S]

There's an argument to be made for both sides on this one, but I really feel that using the 4 (or the 5, if you like that better) for the breakout is the correct shot here. The question I would be asking myself if faced with this scenario is "ok, if I'm not going to try to break up this cluster, then when exactly am I ever going to try to break up a cluster?" As Jude stated, this would have to be considered one of the less risky breakouts you will encounter, and it seems to me that anyone who is or wants to become a runout 9-ball player should be taking this one on.

There's also tendency to assume that just because you play a good defensive shot, you will be rewarded with an offensive opportunity, or even BIH. The fact of the matter, however, is that we 9-ball players are oftentimes pretty good at kicking, so even a kick shot would have to be thought of as just one more opportunity for your opp. to beat you.

I know that if I were playing a strong player, and he/she opted for a defensive play instead of trying to deal with the cluster, I would view that as a sign of discomfort or uncertainty on their part, and I would be happy to have another inning in a rack that really should be over. In other words, the only way I would play defense here is if I were uncomfortable or uncertain about the table or something else.

Good rolls,

Aaron

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I disagree with Seymore. I dont think there is a singular correct answer.
The safety, is the choice Seymore would make and it is the right one for him. The breakout is the choice for you because you feel you can run out. the Breakout is the right choice for me because I dont think I can hit the safety shot.

In Seymore's case however he needs to factor in his opponent. If his opponent is a weak kicker, then its a no-brainer. however if his opponent is a good kicker, he must consider his chances in a kick safety battle with his opponent. And the safety still might be the best choice.

Different strokes for different folks...... damn that sounds cheesy

Sir, I honestly believe playing to your opponent is a weak strategy. I understand why it's done and I understand there are several respectable players that do it but I don't agree with it. There are right shots and wrong shots and who your opponent is should not compromise the decision to play the right shot.

 

[DonFelix]

i would play position on the 5. make the 5 and hit the 8 with follow and a little bit of left hand english pretty full on the right side. the 8 goes to the rail and out and i will have a shot on the 6 in the pocket where it lies