A common mistake...

[TATE]

This cue was advertised as a Paradise? Palmer?


Ebay Palmer? Paradise?

Even I have to look twice. I knew by looking at it that it was not a Palmer or Paradise but it took a close inspection of the Blue Book to discover it was an Adam.

I was not the one who pointed it out to the seller but in this case, it was an easy ID. Sometimes it's not so easy, because there are variations of Palmers and Paradise cues, and a lot of cues that were generic "copies" of these famous themes.

To make it even more confusing, many of my Palmer shafts screw right on into an Adam cue. Adam went to a joint that was nearly identical to Palmer in the 1980's.

The difference in value is, this Adam is a $200 re-sale cue, where a Palmer like it could be $1500 and a Paradise $2500.

Chris

 

[cornerstone]

This cue was advertised as a Paradise? Palmer?


Ebay Palmer? Paradise?

Even I have to look twice. I knew by looking at it that it was not a Palmer or Paradise but it took a close inspection of the Blue Book to discover it was an Adam.

I was not the one who pointed it out to the seller but in this case, it was an easy ID. Sometimes it's not so easy, because there are variations of Palmers and Paradise cues, and a lot of cues that were generic "copies" of these famous themes.

To make it even more confusing, many of my Palmer shafts screw right on into an Adam cue. Adam went to a joint that was nearly identical to Palmer in the 1980's.

The difference in value is, this Adam is a $200 re-sale cue, where a Palmer like it could be $1500 and a Paradise $2500.

Chris

Hey chris, that is part of what is wrong with e-bay, and it takes advantage of the newer collector,and gives the low life a venue to take advantage!!I just got pictures of a vintage bushka signed in the forarm the cue industry needs a little more intgeraty , people that use the "I was told it was"or "Iam listing it for a friend an he was says its a"or "I dont know anything about cues but i think its a"or "unknown cue probably a" this type of thing is killing the cue market on e-bay. and people canot pull real money out of good cues. when you can sell things without straight eye contact and a hand shake.It makes sooo much easier to be deceptive! we need more people like you in the industry, it was a real pleasure on our transaction!

 

[DawgAndy]

I'm no expert, not even close, but I've seen real old Vikings that were exact copies of Palmers too. They had the window and inlays that were very Palmer in style. I guess this was common in cues in the, what 60s and 70s?

Andy

 

[cueman]

I'm no expert, not even close, but I've seen real old Vikings that were exact copies of Palmers too. They had the window and inlays that were very Palmer in style. I guess this was common in cues in the, what 60s and 70s?

Andy

One reason for this was that Viking use to be what Prather Custom Cue Parts is today. Viking used to provide all kinds of cue parts to other cuemakers. It is ironic that the 60's and 70's cues from the one who provided the parts everyone else built their cues out of, won't bring the same prices as those who assembled cues out of Viking parts.

 

[TATE]

One reason for this was that Viking use to be what Prather Custom Cue Parts is today. Viking used to provide all kinds of cue parts to other cuemakers. It is ironic that the 60's and 70's cues from the one who provided the parts everyone else built their cues out of, won't bring the same prices as those who assembled cues out of Viking parts.

That's very interesting. I didn't know that. Do you know if Viking focused on the smaller shops? I know Tad bought his parts from someone. I wonder if he bought from Viking?

It's apparent when you compare the cues that all the cue makers of the 1960's pretty much used whatever parts were available from the same suppliers.

There is also a lot of undiscovered crossover. For example, Burton Spain talks about making a lot of the blanks for Gordon Hart (Viking) in his transcript. Yet, I never see Vikings advertised as "Burton Spain" cues. I don't know if they are recognized as Spain because Spain used more colorful veneers that Viking liked, which would not normally be associated with him.

No matter which parts are used, in cues the name makes all the difference in the world. A documented Paradise and an identical Palmer from the same period will have considerably different values, like the Paradise at 50% to 100% higher than Palmer.


Chris

 

[pawnmon]

Palmer/Paradise (Adam)

I saw that listing and e-mailed the seller twice about the i.d. of the cue. He answered both notices and didn't seem like he was trying to rip off anybody. That being said I also don't see any corrections in his comments in the listing.

I didn't know about Viking supplying lots of parts to other makers of the time, but it makes sense. A friend in San Diego used to have two absolutely identical cues - one a Paradise and one a Palmer. I couldn't tell the difference without spotting the Palmer marking on one of them. When he sold them off he got three times as much for the Paradise as the Palmer. Go figure.

 

[TATE]

I saw that listing and e-mailed the seller twice about the i.d. of the cue. He answered both notices and didn't seem like he was trying to rip off anybody. That being said I also don't see any corrections in his comments in the listing.

All he could do was "add to the description" which he did lower down in the listing. To re-write it, he would have to cancel the auction and relist since he has bids and the reserve is met.

I e-mailed the current high bidder, who has bought from me before, and let him know it's an Adams. The cue is missing the buttcap and an aluminum ring, plus the sleeve is chipped. Basically, at this stage the repairs would cost as much as the cue is worth.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Hey chris, that is part of what is wrong with e-bay, and it takes advantage of the newer collector,and gives the low life a venue to take advantage!!I just got pictures of a vintage bushka signed in the forarm the cue industry needs a little more intgeraty , people that use the "I was told it was"or "Iam listing it for a friend an he was says its a"or "I dont know anything about cues but i think its a"or "unknown cue probably a" this type of thing is killing the cue market on e-bay. and people canot pull real money out of good cues. when you can sell things without straight eye contact and a hand shake.It makes sooo much easier to be deceptive! we need more people like you in the industry, it was a real pleasure on our transaction!

Hi Bill,

I am hoping that other people will join in and publish more information which will help us all to ID the cues, or even just send me catalog scans and so forth I can publish on my site.

I receive a lot of letters and so forth. They senders are asking me questions but in reality they are giving me a lot of information. Like - "what's this cue? I picked it up in Jersey in 1968" - PERFECT. I have a cue, a photo, a timeline, an original owner, a history and a notation of any modifications.

I am publishing the most interesting letters here:

Just Talkin' Cues...

By the way, I got the "Just Talkin' Cues..." name because my friend and I were in a room talking, and I had no idea that a couple of hours passed by, swapping cue stories. Anyway, I heard someone else ask my wife : What's Chris doing in there? She said "just talkin' cues..." - I'm sure with her eyes rolling.

Chris

 

[RSB-Refugee]

... I never see Vikings advertised as "Burton Spain" cues. I don't know if they are recognized as Spain because Spain used more colorful veneers that Viking liked, which would not normally be associated with him.

He (Burton) also said in those writings, that he made a lot of reverse blanks (black palm with maple points) for Gordon Hart.

Tracy

 

[cueaddicts]

Hey chris, that is part of what is wrong with e-bay, and it takes advantage of the newer collector,and gives the low life a venue to take advantage!!I just got pictures of a vintage bushka signed in the forarm the cue industry needs a little more intgeraty , people that use the "I was told it was"or "Iam listing it for a friend an he was says its a"or "I dont know anything about cues but i think its a"or "unknown cue probably a" this type of thing is killing the cue market on e-bay. and people canot pull real money out of good cues. when you can sell things without straight eye contact and a hand shake.It makes sooo much easier to be deceptive! we need more people like you in the industry, it was a real pleasure on our transaction!

Bill,

I somewhat disagree with your assessment of this kind of thing "killing the market" on ebay. Although ebay has its problems, IMO, this cue wasn't falsely advertised. The guy just said he had owned some old Palmers and this cue screamed Palmer. I don't view this as an integrity problem, just an example of an uninformed seller. A lot of traders (sellers and buyers alike) are not very informed these days, especially on the old cues. It's just like anything else in life, though, you should do your homework and not fly in blind. IMO, being informed is a buyers responsibility. There are rats everywhere (not just ebay) and it's ultimately a buyer's responsibility to know who they are dealing with.

With respect to acquiring knowledge....sometimes it takes years to acquire, and a lot of the people that have it will not want to readily share some of the little secrets they have learned (a prime example of this being Balabushka authentication secrets).

However, I think it's stuff like this is what keeps cue collecting...and ebay...interesting and exciting. I still try to log on an check it everyday. Sometimes that "diamond in the rough" can still be found. I think back to the super fancy ebony-on-ebony Paradise 'diamond king' that was bought on ebay a few years back for around $2000. What a cue!!

IMO, the real reason that "good cues" are not pulling any decent money on ebay is more likely just a end result of the vast amount of cues that are out on the market right now. There's so much wood out there. Most all cuemakers nowadays are all building very good cues....and theres a LOT more of them. Not to hurt feelings, but they can't all be worth a ton of money and appreciate over time.

Sean

 

[SPINTHEBALL]

Hey chris, that is part of what is wrong with e-bay, and it takes advantage of the newer collector,and gives the low life a venue to take advantage!!I just got pictures of a vintage bushka signed in the forarm the cue industry needs a little more intgeraty , people that use the "I was told it was"or "Iam listing it for a friend an he was says its a"or "I dont know anything about cues but i think its a"or "unknown cue probably a" this type of thing is killing the cue market on e-bay. and people canot pull real money out of good cues. when you can sell things without straight eye contact and a hand shake.It makes sooo much easier to be deceptive! we need more people like you in the industry, it was a real pleasure on our transaction!

Hey Bill, How goes it at Glass City?

 

[classiccues]

Bill,

I somewhat disagree with your assessment of this kind of thing "killing the market" on ebay. Although ebay has its problems, IMO, this cue wasn't falsely advertised. The guy just said he had owned some old Palmers and this cue screamed Palmer. I don't view this as an integrity problem, just an example of an uninformed seller. A lot of traders (sellers and buyers alike) are not very informed these days, especially on the old cues. It's just like anything else in life, though, you should do your homework and not fly in blind. IMO, being informed is a buyers responsibility. There are rats everywhere (not just ebay) and it's ultimately a buyer's responsibility to know who they are dealing with.

With respect to acquiring knowledge....sometimes it takes years to acquire, and a lot of the people that have it will not want to readily share some of the little secrets they have learned (a prime example of this being Balabushka authentication secrets).

Hey Sean, don't post anything slightly truthful in this forum, there are people here who won't want to read it. But you are dead on. I have had it with newbies who do NOT want to pay the dues it requires to obtain the knowledge they are seeking. For some ungodly reason, they think it is owed to them. Its the same with cuemakers that have 1 year experience and want Szamboti money for their cues, its insane. I know a guitar appraiser who I talk to regularly and we talked about this very thing. He knows little tidbits like when Fender switched pickups or when Gibson changed materials, things that are in NO book. I said how often do you share any of this, he said with very few select collectors and no other appraisers unless then have been in the business a number of years. You can vouch, for my friends I have been more than forth coming on questions involving cues. How many times to I get the "can you id this for me" or how much? at VF? Do you know what it took me to get this info? You know how much I had to pay attention, bribe people how much time I spent with 5-10-20 cues in front of me looking at every little detail? Then someone thinks they should get the info for nothing? ROTFLMAO.. Please show me any other collecting genre where this is common place...

In the case of this adam cue in respect to a Palmer or Paradise...

Black fibre rings are to think, joint pin is wrong, inlays are the wrong size, wrap is WRONG, joint collar is WRONG.., shaft machining is wrong..

Joe

 

[pawnmon]

Joe,

You forgot to mention that the exact cue is pictured in readily available literature like old catalogs and (in this case) the 2nd Blue Book.