A Conundrum from Facebook

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mbvl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hector Ruiz posted on Facebook:

"Player A and player B both need 2 points. Player A scores 1 point with the yellow ball (his ball) and yellow ball freezes with the white ball. Player A sets up the balls in the correct location but mistakenly switches the balls. Player A shoots the white ball. Player B notifies Player A of the error. The point is made. Player A argues that the point is valid and the game is over. Player B argues that the incorrect ball was shot, therefore it's a foul and the point does not count. There's no referee. Pandemonium ensues. Who is right?"

Let's hear some opinions.
 
One way to approach it is to first ask what would happen if it had been the referee who had spotted the balls reversed. I think in that case the point should count. The player should not be harmed by a mistake by the referee.
 
mbvl said:
Hector Ruiz posted on Facebook:

"Player A and player B both need 2 points. Player A scores 1 point with the yellow ball (his ball) and yellow ball freezes with the white ball. Player A sets up the balls in the correct location but mistakenly switches the balls. Player A shoots the white ball. Player B notifies Player A of the error. The point is made. Player A argues that the point is valid and the game is over. Player B argues that the incorrect ball was shot, therefore it's a foul and the point does not count. There's no referee. Pandemonium ensues. Who is right?"

Let's hear some opinions.
Click to expand...

http://www.usba.net/play-3-cushion/rules-of-the-game

7. Wrong Ball.
(a) Shooting with the wrong ball is a foul and ends the player's inning.
(b) The opponent, the referee or the shooting player may call this foul; foul may be called anytime after the stroke is completed and before the next shot is stroked.
(c) Such a foul can be called any time during a run, but the player shall be entitled to all points made before the stroke in which the foul was detected.
(d) The incoming player shall play the balls as they lie after the foul was called.

As all points count (7c)... he wins, if I interpret this correctly. No foul declared when balls were set up incorrectly. As he shoots, and makes the point, error is then declared. The point counts as the shot (and point) was made before the error was called. (Opponent should have detected the incorrect setup before the player makes his continuation). I would gather that maybe, if a referee would have placed the balls incorrectly, he should return the balls to their as near approximate position and have the player retry, or have the player shoot from where the balls lay with the player shooting the correct ball. Since there was no referee at the time, they should abide by the rules (7c) (or as an alternate 7d-no point for shot in which error occured).

I defer to someone who referees the matches at the international levels for a better interpretation.
 
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The point does not count if the wrong ball is shot and the opposing player notifies the shooting player of the foul BEFORE THE NEXT SHOT IS STRUCK. Since there is no next shot, it is a foul and the point does not count.

However, if the opposing player does not realize the foul and congratulates his opponent, the game is over. The opposing player cannot then notify his opponent of the foul (perhaps because a spectator notified him of the foul). Obviously this rule is not "on the books", but it is a good situation to add to the USBA rules.
 
jimshovak said:
The point does not count if the wrong ball is shot and the opposing player notifies the shooting player of the foul BEFORE THE NEXT SHOT IS STRUCK. Since there is no next shot, it is a foul and the point does not count.

However, if the opposing player does not realize the foul and congratulates his opponent, the game is over. The opposing player cannot then notify his opponent of the foul (perhaps because a spectator notified him of the foul). Obviously this rule is not "on the books", but it is a good situation to add to the USBA rules.
Click to expand...

Thank you Jim for the better interpretation. :)
 
A similar situation occurred at one of the Olhausen tournaments in Grand Rapids, Mi. Two player who will go nameless (Mike Bengels and Bassel Elshaar) were in the middle of a match and discovered at some point that they had switched balls. Who switched when? A kerfuffle ensued. I think Bassel won...but I digress.
 
I don't think there is any disagreement about "shooting the wrong ball", but player B is, in a sense, acting as referee when he accepts the respotted balls as correct, and as Bob pointed out a player should not be penalized for a mistake by the referee.
 
There are a lot of "depends" in this scenario, and I'm not talking about ZenSteve in diapers.

If there is a referee and the referee spots the balls incorrectly, it is, in effect, the referee's fault and the point should count anyway.

If the shooter, however, sets up the balls, then it is the shooter's own fault. No point.

If it the opposing player that sets up the balls (very rare), then it is the opposing player's fault and therefore the point should count.
 
You cannot blame the opposing player if the shooter sets up the balls incorrectly. As an opposing player, you may be thinking about a previous shot, or distracted by the next table, etc. It is not the opposing player's responsibility to correct the shooter's mistake. If he sees the mistake, he certainly should say something, but if he doesn't it is still the shooter's fault for screwing up.
 
Great question
I have seen a situation very similar with this one here.
The responsibility of placing the balls is of the player despite being the referee that puts in place the player and inducing him in error.
In another scenario let's assume that the referee after the player plays realizes that there was a change of balls, which should be his your decision? fault, because the player played with the wrong ball..
It is also true that the opponent must pay attention to the match, and if he gives on account of the situation and notify the referee he is on his right, because the rules do not require players to warn the trading of balls of your opponents, and remember that is a game, be warned is fair play.
In short:
- Placing the balls is the player's responsibility.
- Who rules the match is the referee.
Never the less it's a tricky question

best regards
Francisco
 
I posted the following on Facebook and have not yet received a response:

"This is clearly not a standard "shooting the wrong ball" foul. Suppose player A had spotted the two cue balls completely incorrectly -- say as they would be for the standard break shot, or with one cue ball on the red spot. Doesn't player B have some responsibility for seeing that the balls are respotted correctly? If player A had then made the shot with the correct ball, what would player B's options be then?"

It seems that people are talking about the wrong problem. The problem is not that player A shot the wrong ball; the problem is that the balls were respotted incorrectly! Player B (tacitly) accepted the position of the balls -- and that includes the assumption that the shooter's ball is on the break spot.
 
As Player A: I would accept the penalty of being one point short and allow Player B to try his shot as the balls lay, but shooting the correct ball.

As player B: I would allow Player A to attempt the next shot as the balls lay, but shooting the correct ball.

--Both situations,as there is no referee, regardless of the rules.--

If there is a referee, I would accept the decision of the referee.

>>I like to still consider this a "gentlemen's" game after all, even if it is in competition. It's just good form. <<
 
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