A long comment on "aiming systems" ...

First off, there has been plenty of proof given. Problem is, you, and those like you, want to discredit any and all proof given you. To be blunt, some of you just aren't wise enough to take the attitude that if it helped someone else, maybe it will help you too. Instead, you take the attitude of "prove it to me in such a way that I can't possibly dispute it, THEN I will take a look-see at it".

People on here have been willing to share knowledge on here in the past. Few do anymore. And it's because of the attitudes on here. We give you water, and instead of drinking it, you want 10 ways of proof that it will benefit you before you will even think about taking it. Have it your way. I really don't care if you or anyone else wants to use an aiming system or not. I have offered the help, and been shit on by too many on here for it. So.... I am going to follow the route of many of my predecessors, and stop trying to help others on here, and stop correcting the myriad of nonsense I see on here. You win. I am not going to bother trying to fade you and others like you anymore. I'm not going out of my way to help those that obviously don't want any help, and aren't smart enough to jump at the chance to learn something that will help them.

You want to know what's wrong with the forums? Look no farther than yourself. You say we have to much on aiming on here, so you start a thread about aiming just so you can knock it some more. What a joke.



The above is ridiculous, full of assumptions and accusations. Few of which are true. All the "evidence" provided for aiming systems, especially CTE has been thoroughly inspected, dissected and analyzed. By a lot of bright people. Conclusion? Still depends on "feel" ...Even JB's video, he admits at some point, you have to default to feel. That's the critical part. It's masked behind a pile of gobbledygook called "pivoting" and whatnot. The rest of CTE is just a procedure to help one get down on a shot and not be crooked. Big deal. I can do that without utilizing a system.


It's like Jim Jones saying non-believers are are nuts, or not intelligent enough to get it.


I have to hold my nose when saying it, but Patrick Johnson had it boiled down to the fact that it still requires feel, and thus compensation.
 
Would it be fair then to say it's a waste of time being obsessed with aiming systems? Thus, in reality, ALL the aiming system users should be the biggest advocates and proponents of stroke/mechanics. Since, aiming is figured out already if what they claim is true..

I think that just by this paragraph, there seems to be an awful lot that you've missed in all the reading about aim systems and their advocates.

I will revert back to Hal Houle who said a few things in my early discussion with him. If you can't stroke straight, forget about aiming. Additionally, his two angle approach was an introduction, not an ending. Anyone who claims that his systems took the place of stroking or that his initial systems was some kind of end all never learned a thing from Hal.

Look at the proponents on this board on aiming systems. Most if not all of them are accomplished and pretty much obsessed with all aspects of the game. I'm not sure where it was ever confused that aim system advocates somehow forego their stroke. We are all pool players, after all (everyone but me) .
 
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The point is that, in their world - there seems to be a greater percentage of attention given to stroke, mechanics and fundamentals than "aiming systems" ..they've got aiming systems too. They just don't seem so religious and fanatical about them.


Here's probably why....


If you've played on a genuine 12 foot snooker table (I have), it becomes obvious. But I'll spell it out. Take a straight in shot. A straight in shot doesn't' require any kind of compensation for the curvature of the balls. The contact point ought to be very clear and obvious. There's a few different ways to line that shot up. This is easy to miss in snooker. Even in pool. But snooker, due to the nature of the game, more quickly brings people to the conclusion that THEIR STROKE SUCKS. Sure, they may have aiming flaws. I never said aiming isn't part of the equation. It is just as important as anything else as a prerequisite for great play. Without aim, there's nothing else. It's mandatory. However, aim is a visual and mental understanding. That is easier to learn and acquire, because unlike stroke, it doesn't require nearly as much repetition to train the body. Stroke also requires mental understanding, but there's also the physical component of controlling one's body.



Think of it this way....



Who would be the better player?????



Player 1:


Player 1 has absolute perfect aim. Never lines up wrong, always knows the exact contact point or line of aim. However, Player 1 has a mediocre stroke, doesn't always hit the CB correctly.


Player 2:


Player 2 has an absolutely perfect stroke. It is as straight as if it were a mechanical device. Always hits the cueball where intended. However, Player 2 has mediocre aiming skills. Can aim well, but is not perfect all the time.




I contend that player 2 would CRUSH player 1 in the long run if not immediately. Player 2 will occasionally miss due to an aiming flaw. But Player 2's knowledge of aiming is sufficient for the vast majority of shots. Sufficient enough to pocket balls and get good shape. Since even intermediate players have sufficient aiming skills and knowledge for the vast majority of shots.

Player 1, as great as their aim may be, is likely to MISS ANY SHOT AT ANY TIME due to the mediocre stroke. Player 1 has no consistency in hitting the cueball. That introduces uncertainty in ALL SHOTS, ALL the TIME. Player 1 might know exactly how to aim every single time, but player 1 is no better than a novice with equivalent stroke/mechanics because either has the same odds or ability of cuing the CB correctly.



Bottom line, if you can't deliver the ball to where you're aiming - what good was the great aim? Conversely, the aiming fanatics say what good is a great stroke without direction (aim)?


To that I say, and I contend, that a lot of players develop pretty decent aiming skills. Enough to be able to play great pool. Maybe not pro, but their aim is good enough to make them real good shooters..pretty close to pro I would say. What's holding them back is stroke. Earning a great stroke = lots of time and hard work.

That said, more attention ought to be spent on stroke. Not on finding magic cure, get rich quick, diet pill type solutions. The aiming zealots absolutely do claim, whether implied or suggested, that what is holding people back is their inability to aim shots. Please do not say that isn't true or that "no one says that" ...


The last and final touches on aim, that is, perfecting aim to reach pro level will occur the same way as stroke - with practice and training to condition/program the visual and mental memory and perception part of a player's game. By all means, utilize an aiming system. Good to have more weapons in your arsenal. More tools at your disposal. Knowledge is never a bad thing. But when tackling a problem (in this case, the development of a player's game), it's wise to address and achieve the biggest and more important goals. To take on and master that which will reward or pay back the player the most. And again, that doesn't mean never learn to aim perfectly. As I stated, you need it all to have a complete game and be a "pro" ...



That was the point of the thread. (Trying to get the thread back on track).


Anyone care to dispute the claim that the weaker stroke player will be plagued 100% of the time by their stroke, but the weaker aiming player will not be played with weaker aiming 100% of the time?

A perfect aim shooter may very well stroke perfectly (sometimes). So it's not always going to be bad. But, which is either going to be on or off the most or more often??

In my opinion, aim is either on or it isn't. You are either aiming correctly, or you are not. If you are not, you miss. Many amateurs will make more balls than they miss; therefore, they must be aiming correctly more than not. The most you can be off on aim is the size of the pocket. But not necessarily, what if shooting at half a pocket, or a smaller area?

However, stroke isn't like that. Even when a stroke is sufficient to make a ball, it may very well not be "on" ...I can hit a ball into a pocket. Earl can hit the same ball into the pocket. Chances are, I'm using more of the margin for error on that shot than he is. If we each shoot it 1,000 times, who will be dead center more often? And why? Earl of course. Because he has a better stroke. We may both be going for that dead center.


That said, it is my opinion, that even amongst shots that are made, there's still stroke flaw for most players. Causes other problems too (spin related). Which overall effects your game, position play, accuracy you name it. Even speed.



It's my belief that aim is over done. A lot of players have enough aiming ability and aiming accuracy to play at a very high level. What's holding back most players is stroke. Purity and accuracy of stroke.


I've made my case. That's that.
 
I think that just by this paragraph, there seems to be an awful lot that you've missed in all the reading about aim systems and their advocates.

I will revert back to Hal Houle who said a few things in my early discussion with him. If you can't stroke straight, forget about aiming. Additionally, his two angle approach was an introduction, not an ending. Anyone who claims that his systems took the place of stroking or that his initial systems was some kind of end all never learned a thing from Hal.

Look at the proponents on this board on aiming systems. Most if not all of them are accomplished and pretty much obsessed with all aspects of the game. I'm not sure where it was ever confused that aim system advocates somehow forego their stroke. We are all pool players, after all (everyone but me) .


This is a strawman argument that has been perpetuated by several people, and now you, in this thread.

I did not claim stroke is a replacement for aiming. I am not claiming people are dumping stroke for aim.

That is not part of the discussion.


Perhaps you haven't read this thread?
 
This is a strawman argument that has been perpetuated by several people, and now you, in this thread.

I did not claim stroke is a replacement for aiming. I am not claiming people are dumping stroke for aim.

That is not part of the discussion.


Perhaps you haven't read this thread?
So.... when you said:

"Thus, in reality, ALL the aiming system users should be the biggest advocates and proponents of stroke/mechanics....Yet, the opposite is true."

You're not saying nor implying that aiming systems advocates are dumping stroke for aim??? What exactly is "the opposite is true" mean in your context then?

Your words read that all aiming system are not the biggest advocates and are non-proponents of stroke/mechanics. That is opposite, isn't it???

Maybe you didn't mean it, but that's not my fault. I didn't setup the strawman. And if this is about wordsmithing, then we're done.
 
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JB Cases said:
Whether INSERT SOMEONE'S NAME can play or not has no bearing on whether the system works or not.

John, please consider your own statement the next time you start challenging folks to produce videos.

Lou Figueroa



:D


This goes back to the days of RSB. Back as far as I can remember (mid 1990's) JB would eventually issue a challenge or a bet in a long thread after lots of debate and argument. It's his M.O.. Or a staple of his. Guaranteed to happen. Most heated threads result in bets or challenges. But back then, we didn't have the internet like we do now with videos, so he would offer challenges or bets to people the next time he would be in their city or town.


John probably loathes me for my opinions of custom cues and aiming systems, but I don't hate him. I agree with a lot of what he says. Just not all of it. But who agrees with anyone 100%? I think John knows a lot about pool, more than most people could hope to. He is also the greatest case maker. But my oh my, does he get a little emotional and OCD in these pool debates. It's nothing new.


I'd take 3 JB's over 1 Patrick Johnson. :p At least JB is not condescending and incapable of ever admitting he is wrong to the point of spinning and spinning. Sorry Pat, if you're out there you're also a knowledgeable guy that I respect your info and logic. He's has been a great contributor, but pride gets in the way sometimes. No one is perfect. I admit that I can be a little incendiary. I'm not trolling, but I do like to "myth" bust at least as I see it, and that tends to result in picking on what some feel is sacred.


Sorry, got a little nostalgic there. I just don't want any bitterness or this getting too PERSONAL. I don't think anyone here is an idiot or a jerk because of what they believe. We just have different ideas. I learned a lot, lot, lot from you guys, Bob, Fred, Lou, Ron, John, Pat, Mike, David et al from back on RSB. I just want to say thank you.


<---trying to keep things in perspective.


:love2:
 
No kidding. Someone posted not too long ago that they had sold 1,000 copies of an instructional DVD at $39 a pop. Even minus production costs it doesn't take a beautiful mind to figure out DVDs are a big money maker.

Lou Figueroa

Very interesting that you should say that, Lou. This dinosaur was in search of a particular DVD just this afternoon and noticed that there are scads of them available these days. They cover kicking, banking, aiming, jumping, breaking, concentration, and just about anything else to do with pool. It must definitely be a better way to make money at this game than giving one-on-one lessons, or competing.

Now we all know that money is a great motivator, so it only makes sense that people who possess saleable knowledge should want to sell it through the most profitable means possible. If the current thing is selling DVDs, then DVDs it is. Problem is, while these forums are the main avenue used to advertise those products, the authors of the products seem to never participate in these discussions, and yet, they are the very ones who could clear up the debates.

Roger
The Original Dinosaur
 
i know every member on this board is smarter than me and for sure a better pool player. But is there a difference between a potting system and an aiming system?
 
Very interesting that you should say that, Lou. This dinosaur was in search of a particular DVD just this afternoon and noticed that there are scads of them available these days. They cover kicking, banking, aiming, jumping, breaking, concentration, and just about anything else to do with pool. It must definitely be a better way to make money at this game than giving one-on-one lessons, or competing.

Now we all know that money is a great motivator, so it only makes sense that people who possess saleable knowledge should want to sell it through the most profitable means possible. If the current thing is selling DVDs, then DVDs it is. Problem is, while these forums are the main avenue used to advertise those products, the authors of the products seem to never participate in these discussions, and yet, they are the very ones who could clear up the debates.

Roger
The Original Dinosaur

Look how much fun you and these other guys have been having on the internet, how long has the internet been around? embracing advancement is a great thing, wouldn't you agree? could you imagine any guy who was anti internet back in the day, how dumb is he, maybe dumber than me lol


pssst, i know that was for me ;)
 
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I'll pass,,lol.But heres a hint into my aiming method .It is educated guessing jacked up on mountain dew and maybe a jack and coke now and then.And i do it well!;)

I was quoting a post and it disappeared.What the hecks going on here.lol..
JB you got me on ignore or something.
 
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Unreal, just unreal.....

As I said in another post, system users are just a royal pain in the ass, both on line and in real life.

I posted a three bank I did. No retries, no do overs. First attempt in a game. Now,I have no video of such, but this should not prevent any "system user" from trying it, and making it on the first try.

I really want to know how CTE , fractional and overlap system user do this.

I have written the bases on how I did it, now step up or shut up.
 
Very interesting that you should say that, Lou. This dinosaur was in search of a particular DVD just this afternoon and noticed that there are scads of them available these days. They cover kicking, banking, aiming, jumping, breaking, concentration, and just about anything else to do with pool. It must definitely be a better way to make money at this game than giving one-on-one lessons, or competing.

Now we all know that money is a great motivator, so it only makes sense that people who possess saleable knowledge should want to sell it through the most profitable means possible. If the current thing is selling DVDs, then DVDs it is. Problem is, while these forums are the main avenue used to advertise those products, the authors of the products seem to never participate in these discussions, and yet, they are the very ones who could clear up the debates.

Roger
The Original Dinosaur

You're joking right? What would the author have to gain by telling a critic why he authored a book/dvd?

The critic isn't going to stop calling the author a money grubbing charlatan just because the author participates in the discussion.

In fact naysayers have done e everything possible to drive authors of instructional materials covering aiming methods away from azb.




www.jbcases.com
 
The above is ridiculous, full of assumptions and accusations. Few of which are true. All the "evidence" provided for aiming systems, especially CTE has been thoroughly inspected, dissected and analyzed. By a lot of bright people. Conclusion? Still depends on "feel" ...Even JB's video, he admits at some point, you have to default to feel. That's the critical part. It's masked behind a pile of gobbledygook called "pivoting" and whatnot. The rest of CTE is just a procedure to help one get down on a shot and not be crooked. Big deal. I can do that without utilizing a system.


It's like Jim Jones saying non-believers are are nuts, or not intelligent enough to get it.


I have to hold my nose when saying it, but Patrick Johnson had it boiled down to the fact that it still requires feel, and thus compensation.

The only reason I say that is because no two human beings are the same. Thus a bridge hand placement at 12" with a 30" pivot may be perfect for my stance but not for yours. But the visual approach will be the same for all players. The steps leading up to getting down on the shot will be the same.




www.jbcases.com
 
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