a meucci question that been bugging me,,,

bruin70

bruin70

don't wannabe M0DERATOR
Silver Member
,,,like,,,forever.

and please correct me if i'm wrong on my history.

one of the raps on meucci cues was that they deflected too much. did not frank meucci do tests to prove otherwise?

fast forward,,,,with predator and other tests, was it not shown that "mass displacement"(or maybe lack of it) is what causes deflection, ie: from a lay pov, that the stiffer/harder the shaft/tip, the more deflection because there is no give...enter predator with their "hollow tip", softer ferrule.

so,,,lambasting that they've taken, wasn't meucci rather forward thinking with his thin, soft ferrules, tenon through, and whippy shafts? and why the contradictory observations about deflection....that players say the cues deflect, yet frank showed otherwise. and if they DO deflect a lot,,,,why is it? is there some other part of the meucci construction that causes deflection?,,,,it is a soft hitting cue.

and unless it's pertinent to my question, i'm not interested in whether the cue falls apart or not...this is a question simply about the hit.
 
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bruin70 said:
,,,like,,,forever.

and please correct me if i'm wrong on my history.

one of the raps on meucci cues was that they deflected too much. did not frank meucci do tests to prove otherwise?

fast forward,,,,with predator and other tests, was it not shown that "mass displacement"(or maybe lack of it) is what causes deflection, ie: from a lay pov, that the stiffer/harder the shaft/tip, the more deflection because there is no give...enter predator with their "hollow tip", softer ferrule.

so,,,lambasting that they've taken, wasn't meucci rather forward thinking with his thin, soft ferrules and whippy shafts? and why the contradictory observations about deflection....that players say the cues deflect, yet frank showed otherwise. and if they DO deflect a lot,,,,why is it? is there some other part of the meucci construction that causes deflection?,,,,it is a soft hitting cue.

and unless it's pertinent to my question, i'm not interested in whether the cue falls apart or not...this is a question simply about the hit.
Click to expand...

Sort of. What Bob did, was use a common term of the day, and give it
the exact oposite meaning of what everybody else ment when they
said deflection ie deflection of the shaft resulting in more erratic english.

IIUC - what you are refering to is what was to become known as 'squirt'
the phenom of any off-center hit tending to push the CB off line

Bob Jewett, as usual, is pretty much the local<global?> authority on this
subject.

So, Predator et al now charge forward with ever increasing schemes to
reduce the dreaded squirt, and sell product, based on the contention that less squirt guarentees beter play.

Hold on there Willy.
The bad news:
Predator, Meucci, or Rambow, anytime you hit the CB off center,
several things must be adjusted for if you want to pocket the ball.

Dale<no silver bull-it>Pierce
 
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one of the raps on meucci cues was that they deflected too much. did not frank meucci do tests to prove otherwise?

Who checked if that Red Dot shaft they used in the Myth Destroyer was stock?
 
I always thought it was weird that Bob's "Myth Destroyer" Robot showed that his cues have the least amount of "deflection." What I thought was odd about that was this:

He strikes the cueball off center, I believe to the left...
The cueball (which obviously has left hand spin on it) strikes an object ball....
The object ball then proceeds to hit the rail which is where the measurement of "deflection" is taken.

I was taught years ago that with was actually something called "Throw." Dale called it swerve and I guess he's referring to the same thing but either way, to me it seems like a natural thing that you want to happen. Spin on the cueball creates spin on the object ball? Isn't that a good thing?

I think in order to properly measure cueball deflection you should remove the object ball from that equation and see how far off line the cueball goes when struck off center. The extra ball only blocks the actual results.
 
bruin70 said:
,,,like,,,forever.

and please correct me if i'm wrong on my history.

one of the raps on meucci cues was that they deflected too much. did not frank meucci do tests to prove otherwise?

fast forward,,,,with predator and other tests, was it not shown that "mass displacement"(or maybe lack of it) is what causes deflection, ie: from a lay pov, that the stiffer/harder the shaft/tip, the more deflection because there is no give...enter predator with their "hollow tip", softer ferrule.

so,,,lambasting that they've taken, wasn't meucci rather forward thinking with his thin, soft ferrules, tenon through, and whippy shafts? and why the contradictory observations about deflection....that players say the cues deflect, yet frank showed otherwise. and if they DO deflect a lot,,,,why is it? is there some other part of the meucci construction that causes deflection?,,,,it is a soft hitting cue.

and unless it's pertinent to my question, i'm not interested in whether the cue falls apart or not...this is a question simply about the hit.
Click to expand...

Hey, Your thread got me thinking. Now I got something to try out tonight. Tks.
 
pdcue said:
Sort of. What Bob did, was use a common term of the day, and give it
the exact oposite meaning of what everybody else ment when they
said deflection ie deflection of the shaft resulting in more erratic english.

IIUC - what you are refering to is what was to become known as 'swerve'
the phenom of any off-center hit tending to push the CB off line
Click to expand...

so each was using the term "deflection" differently. which one was using what?

also the question left unanswered, why do meucci's supposedly swerve more when their shaft seems to have all the properties condusive to LESS swerve. since the ferrule/tip is softer, then that certainly is in keeping with predator line of thinking....is it that the shaft is TOO whippy?
 
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bruin70 said:

so each was using the term "deflection" differently. which one was using what?

also the question left unanswered, why do meucci's supposedly swerve more when their shaft seems to have all the properties condusive to LESS swerve. since the ferrule/tip is softer, then that certainly is in keeping with predator line of thinking....is it that the shaft is TOO whippy?
Click to expand...

Reset:
As I implied before, I'm not the squirt guru.

IIUC - squirt is reduced by having LESS MASS at the tip end
of the shaft so, Meuccis don't squirt more, they squirt less than say,
a shaft with an ivory ferrule.

Squirt is NOT Throw, throw happens when a spinning CB contacts
an OB. Squirt happens when the shaft hits the CB off center.
Once again, IMHO - it was this effect that Bob M. was refering to
when he used the term deflection.

Whippy shafts don't effect squirt, but they are thought by many
to result in less controled sidespin. To be fair, many very sporty
players, over the years, have loved Meuccis.

Dale
 
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So wouldn't it be correct then to say that what his Robot measured had nothing to do with deflection? It seems to me that the way his test was done really doesn't measure much of anything that could be construed as a good indicator of the performance of his cues.

To me it seems like he's not measureing deflection. His measurement would be of throw in which case his cues performed worse than all the others.

Does that make sense to anyone or do I need to bang my head off a wall?

Dave
 
After going back to Bobbys site time to correct my previous statements.

He strikes the object ball to the right of the center.
The object ball the deflects to the left.
With right hand spin it throws the object ball back to the left.

While this makes more sense than I previously thought I still think it is a poor test for the cue. You have deflection, swerve and throw all in the same scenario and he is saying that the results indicate the least amount of deflection. Anybody who has done a scientific experiment will tell you there is not enough control in that scenario to give you accurate results on one of those 3 factors.

For example, his shaft could deflect more than some others but swerve and throw more so as to compensate for the deflection in which case his statement is inaccurate.

Not only that but his results on his own shafts will very based on which way the laminates are facing. I think a lot of research has been done showing that radial lam. shafts are more consistent all the way around the shaft.

I did notice something very interesting on his website though

Breaking News! Coming June 15
A New Import Brand Designed & Engineered
by Bob Meucci for Beauty & Performance.
Built 80% Offshore & Tweaked by Meucci USA

How much tweaking can you do after 80% of the work is already done?

Still ready to head butt the wall
Dave
 
I agree Dave, I think the squirt test should be done by a robot hitting a cueball with left or right spin at a target and seeing how far away from target the cueball hits.

Meucci's test with another ball in it just complicates things with throw now being added in.

IMO Predator understood that a whippy shaft had less cueball squirt, but did not want to make a parallel tapered whippy shaft like Meucci, so instead they created a decently stiff tapered shaft, then hollowed out the front few inches to make that area (the area after your bridge) whippy, thus having a better hit & feel with less cueball squirt.

I'm pretty sure that Iron Willie simply measures how far offline the cueball travels when hit with sidespin, which IMO is a more valid test than the Myth Destroyer.

IM
 
whippiness

full splice,
I played with a Predator 314 1st gen shaft and found nothing 'whippy'
in it's behavior, nothing like that of a meucci.
My Predator was turned down to the size of a z shaft.

dave,
do you know the tip diameter on a stock black dot?
I believe they're a smaller diameter shaft than most other
production shafts. this should also affect results.

Meucci's test sucks, first because the object ball shouldn't be involved
and second because who strikes an object ball at 10mph...
there are a million other problems too

I think that his robot and test was designed to make his shafts appear
to shoot straighter, the robot's bridge seems to be of poor design and
should expand from a center point as opposed to moving only vertically.

that said, I think that the cue stick not rest on a fulcrum, did anyone else notice the movement at the tip, up, down, left, and right?

and the biggest problem that I have is that Bob says that the elbow is the
only joint that should be moving in a stroke... Yeah right..
ever see bustamante's wrist action?


Dave,
do you still have that ob-1 shaft?
 
If Meucci's taper miraculously resulted in less cueball squirt, there'd be a ton of makers copying it.
Nuff said.
 
coopdeville said:
I played with a Predator 314 1st gen shaft and found nothing 'whippy'
in it's behaviorQUOTE]

The whole point of it being hollow in the first 5 inches is to decrease end mass and make it "flex" away from the cueball. Flexy, whippy, whatever..
Click to expand...
 
fullsplicefiend said:
coopdeville said:
I played with a Predator 314 1st gen shaft and found nothing 'whippy'
in it's behaviorQUOTE]

The whole point of it being hollow in the first 5 inches is to decrease end mass and make it "flex" away from the cueball. Flexy, whippy, whatever..
Click to expand...
It doesn't FLEX away for the cueball.
It deflects away from the cueball BEFORE the cueball itself deflects away from the tip.
Click to expand...
 
this makes sense

JoeyInCali said:
fullsplicefiend said:
It doesn't FLEX away for the cueball.
It deflects away from the cueball BEFORE the cueball itself deflects away from the tip.
Click to expand...

this makes sense, so changing from a hard to a soft tip should
also change the reaction of the cb because a soft tip will stay
in contact with the cb for a longer period of time and a hard tip will be
deflected away faster?
Click to expand...
 
DiamondDave said:
Breaking News! Coming June 15
A New Import Brand Designed & Engineered
by Bob Meucci for Beauty & Performance.
Built 80% Offshore & Tweaked by Meucci USA

How much tweaking can you do after 80% of the work is already done?

Still ready to head butt the wall
Dave
Click to expand...

Annie-O uses a machine to test (insert whatever word you want to use here) also and she uses an object ball in the mix as well, so its not really only Bob doing this. http://www.annieosproshop.com/khxc/...ntshafts/sid/577z78734376459aj09b7p2bkju79l40

and 20% of the work EDIT: can be entailed in the shaft taper, ferrule and tip. its not really all that uncommon to have other companies m ake the butt of a cue. Look at Samsera, they manufacture the butts for Gulyassey and X-breaker, and then those guys match up thier own shafts to them.
 
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socks said:
Annie-O uses a machine to test (insert whatever word you want to use here) also and she uses an object ball in the mix as well, so its not really only Bob doing this.

.
Click to expand...
Isn't she a deciple of Bob M?
and 20% of the work is entailed in the shaft taper, ferrule and tip. its not really all that uncommon to have other companies m ake the butt of a cue. Look at Samsera, they manufacture the butts for Gulyassey and X-breaker, and then those guys match up thier own shafts to them.



I believe the 20% is the finish and wrap done here. Tapering, ferrule and tip is not 20% of the work.
 
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yeah i ment to say can be, cause really, what do i know. but if nothing else, if they gonna have the stuff built abroud, maybe the quality will improve :P
 
socks said:
yeah i ment to say can be, cause really, what do i know. but if nothing else, if they gonna have the stuff built abroud, maybe the quality will improve :P
Click to expand...

Good point, maybe it will improve. From what I've seen of them over the last 4 years, its hard to imagine it getting worse. Their shafts warp, finish is so thin you can feel the inlays, tons of filler around the inlays, cracked points and inlays. Its amazing they are still in business. They could also benefit from a whole new staff. Trying to get info out of anybody in that place is impossible. I've honestly never seen a company with such a poor product and poor service. According to other people I've talked to its not just me either.

Dave
 
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