A question about a bank shot

[Rubyron]

My question is on a bank shot where the object ball is close to the rail and you are close to a double kiss and need to shorten the angle does draw or follow help get the cue ball out of the way? My experience (which is limited) is that hitting this shot hard with follow seems to get the cue ball out of the way more often than hitting it hard with draw. Am I wrong?

Our local ace explained to me that low reverse english will shorten the angle more than high reverse but will that help get the cue ball out of the way of the double kiss more often?

Freddy...Bob Jewett...can anyone explain this?

CueTable Help

 

[mikepage]

My question is on a bank shot where the object ball is close to the rail and you are close to a double kiss and need to shorten the angle does draw or follow help get the cue ball out of the way? My experience (which is limited) is that hitting this shot hard with follow seems to get the cue ball out of the way more often than hitting it hard with draw. Am I wrong?

Our local ace explained to me that low reverse english will shorten the angle more than high reverse but will that help get the cue ball out of the way of the double kiss more often?

Freddy...Bob Jewett...can anyone explain this?

[...]

While Freddy and Bob are having their morning coffee, I speculate a bit. To get maximum spin transfer (to shorten the angle the most) you want the cueball surface to rub horizontally across the object ball. To get this, you want to stun the cueball into the object ball.

So low reverse is correct, I believe, but just enouigh low to get stun.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

low reverse is correct, I believe, but just enouigh low to get stun.

And it gets the cue ball out of the way more by allowing you to hit the object ball at a greater angle.

I'm guessing (for object balls really close to the rail) the object ball is gone before follow or draw has time to "grab", so that's irrelevant.

pj
chgo

 

[Rubyron]

[...]

While Freddy and Bob are having their morning coffee, I speculate a bit. To get maximum spin transfer (to shorten the angle the most) you want the cueball surface to rub horizontally across the object ball. To get this, you want to stun the cueball into the object ball.

So low reverse is correct, I believe, but just enouigh low to get stun.

Thanks for the reply.

From my limited studies of the subject the amount of spin you can transfer to the object ball is very minimal. If you hit it hard with reverse english then you have to compensate for squirt. Are there any benefits to hitting it this way? Does this help get the cue ball out of the double kiss?

 

[Rubyron]

That is what I'm trying to figure out. Everybody is telling that I am wrong so I must be wrong. It just seem to to me that hitting this shot with follow gets the cue ball out of the way better than hitting it with draw.

 

[mikepage]

Thanks for the reply.

From my limited studies of the subject the amount of spin you can transfer to the object ball is very minimal. If you hit it hard with reverse english then you have to compensate for squirt. Are there any benefits to hitting it this way? Does this help get the cue ball out of the double kiss?

Definitely need the real experts here.

The squirt is irrelevant: you have to compensate for that on all the shots.

Sure the spin transfer is small, but that spin transfer is the whole reason the bank is shortened in this case, so its effect is not small.

I think there are two issues here, and they're somewhat opposing.

The spin transfer is maximized when you stun the cueball softly into the object ball. And, as Pat said, that means you can hit a little less ball and therefore have the cueball move along the tangent faster, getting out of the way.

On the other hand, when you hit harder, the object ball digs further into the rail, giving the cueball more time to get out of the way.

 

[freddy the beard]

It Don't go

The shot you display wont go, period. The shot, as you show it, is too close to the rail to be able to "turn" the object ball with english and affect it enough to shorten the angle in order to make the shot. Also the angle is too wide to be able to shorten the shot that way either. Move the Q ball a few inches to the left, and hard speed, dead level center, or high ball will work well. That's how Eddie Taylor made those extreme pinch shots that were close to, or on the rail. Next, If you move the OB off the rail about an inch, you can pinch the shot with inside english. You can use low ball, but never draw! (More of Eddie Taylor's knowledge) Where the confusion comes from is when you make and cue the shot by using extreme low reverse inside english. That works, but what is actually happening is you must time your Q ball speed to lose all the backspin by the time it contacts the OB, resulting in the Qball contacting OB with sidespin and skidding ball only, no backspin.

the Beard

 

[Rubyron]

\Sure the spin transfer is small, but that spin transfer is the whole reason the bank is shortened in this case, so its effect is not small.

I still am not sure why spin would shorten the angle very much on a shot like this. I think that it would be the compression of the object ball into the rail that would shorten the angle. So the harder you hit it the shorter it will come regardless of sidespin. My question is would follow help more than draw.

 

[mikepage]

I still am not sure why spin would shorten the angle very much on a shot like this. I think that it would be the compression of the object ball into the rail that would shorten the angle. So the harder you hit it the shorter it will come regardless of sidespin. My question is would follow help more than draw.

Your premise is wrong; it is the sidespin that shortens the angle, not the compression. The compression/shortening stuff is pretty much a myth.

When people hit banks hard (when the object ball is further from the rail) and notice a shortening with speed, what's really happening is the hard-hit object ball doesn't gain forward roll on its way to the rail. So it doesn't widen out (from the top overspin) after the rail as much as the slow-hit bank does. Bob Jewett has demonstrated this nicely.

When the object ball is very close to the rail like in your case, hitting it harder won't shorten the angle. That's because the object ball is sliding (not rolling) into the rail at any speed.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The shot you display wont go, period. The shot, as you show it, is too close to the rail to be able to "turn" the object ball with english and affect it enough to shorten the angle in order to make the shot.

I think this is generally true, but if the cloth and balls are really sticky you can put a little extra cut on the bank, getting the cue ball out of the way more quickly, and the transferred sidespin will have more effect, which can shorten the wider angle enough to make it. But these are extreme conditions which make the results less consistent and harder to judge.

pj
chgo

 

[Rubyron]

When people hit banks hard (when the object ball is further from the rail) and notice a shortening with speed, what's really happening is the hard-hit object ball doesn't gain forward roll on its way to the rail. So it doesn't widen out (from the top overspin) after the rail as much as the slow-hit bank does. Bob Jewett has demonstrated this nicely.

When the object ball is very close to the rail like in your case, hitting it harder won't shorten the angle. That's because the object ball is sliding (not rolling) into the rail at any speed.

Thanks for your reply. I understand about the object ball coming shorter because it has no forward roll. My question is would follow help the cue ball get out of the way more than draw or stun. Freddy says hit these shots with "low ball" but never draw. Why would draw have an adverse effect on the double kiss?

 

[mikepage]

[...] Freddy says hit these shots with "low ball" but never draw. Why would draw have an adverse effect on the double kiss?

Because the more draw there is the less sidespin will be transferred (even if there's also a lot of sidespin).

Think of the surface of the cueball swiping against the surface of the object ball like a broom swiping against the floor. There's a little bit of frictional force from the swipe, but there isn't more frictional force if you swipe faster.

There's only so much swiping force to go around. If there's draw on the cueball, some of the swipe--the wasted part--will be in an upward direction. That leave less of it for the sideways part that will do you some good.

That's why Freddy suggests stun.