A Question for CJ

I can't improve anything, I'll just give my "2 Cents Worth"

This is a very good post, even if you're not "CJ". ;)jk I can't improve anything, I'll give my "2 Cents Worth," because I believe you hit on some truly vital and essential points.

Fly fishing or casting in general is something I use as a reference as well. I also use the analogy of using a bullwhip, or whipping a wet towel. In every case the forward motion does have to start slowly or you use the potential energy. It's also important not to move the body forward, especially on the break, or your potential will diminish.

Another key to synchronising this motion is to make sure to accelerate your hand/wrist/finger EXACTLY at the moment of contact. I believe relates to the timing factor you mentioned. It's human nature to try to rush the first part of the stroke and even after many years I still have to concentrate on this in practice. I have several ways to teach this, however, your post gives a outstanding example of what outcome to strive for.

I have to give credit where credit is due, your post really hit home, and I encourage everyone to read, and re read the fishing analogy, it's spot on imho.

Here's a picture that I've posted several times because once someone understands that the pool stroke is like a fishing, golfing, or hammer motion they can improve very rapidly. The stoke and the effectiveness of the motion is a huge part of playing well.

HaneyRightHandRelease.jpg




Sloppy Pockets;5026900[B said:
I'm not CJ but I'll tell you what I do to get true acceleration throughout the stroke. I pause ever so slightly at the end of the backstroke and then deliberately start the forward stroke slowly. Watch most top snooker players and you will see they do the same thing.

I used to be a fly casting instructor, and the hardest thing I found to teach is the timing involved in smooth acceleration. Flaws in casting stroke timing have a much more profound effect on a fly cast than they do on a pool stroke. Even with a decelerating cue stroke you will probably still make the ball. You may get crap action on the CB, but the ball will go in if you deliver a straight stroke along the proper shot line.

If you accelerate too quickly or erratically with a fly cast you will put a bend in the rod when and where you don't want it. This will force the rod tip downward, bringing the line along with it, and creating what is called a "tailing loop" (the fly drops below the plane of the unrolling line). This will kill the cast in mid air, and will likely tie an overhand knot right in the middle of your expensive fly line.

What I have seen over and over (and particularly with men) is that the caster rushes the stroke at the beginning and runs out of gas at the end. I used to tell guys to thrust their rod tip up and back at the end of the backstroke, and to wait until they felt the pull of the line, then to begin the forward stroke with a dragging motion before applying full power. This usually gave them the slow start requiring for continuous acceleration and a smooth, straight cast.

I've transferred that "dragging" feeling to the beginning of my pool stroke and it has really done wonders for me. The cue gets through the ball in a much more convincing way now, and the action on the CB is greater in spite of feeling like I am using less force. Well, I am using less force, but the power delivery is greater because the cue never stops increasing in speed throughout the stroke. And less force means a straighter stoke in most cases, so the CB goes where I want it to go.

As an aside, I've noticed in the hundreds of people that I've taught to fly cast that this problem occurs almost exclusively with male casters. Females casters are mostly naturals in this regard. This may be because woman lack the upper body strength of men, and learn to use proper timing at an early age to accomplish what we machos try to accomplish with brute strength. Therefore, women in both sports often have more elegant stroke timing than the men do.
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Sloppy pockets, hey, tried that stop/hesitation at end of back stroke with sucess. Could definitely feel the accelleration & 'commitment' to my shot and stroke. Somewhat uncomfortable but effective. Yeah, forced me to follow thru.
I've got it in my mind now so I'll be more aware when I pull the trigger, plus, seems to keep me down on my stroke.
Good thread. It's paid me $$ tonite . Enjoyed practice /playing & getting paid.. Ha... B
 
rennerb6 said:
Sloppy pockets, cool analogy. ! I too, fly fish. Back in the day I lived in Wyoming. I used to 'bullwhip' the line and fray the LEADERS. As to pool, I can also see the relationships between the two. Cool analogy. Try to keep it in mind. Yeah man........!
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Ha, ha! Yeah, we all used to bullwhip the leader to shreds when we first started. That's the whole timing thing again. Of course, you lost a $2 fly every time you did that, so that alone was a powerful incentive to learn to cast correctly. ;)

To carry this analogy further, there is a way to cast a fly that doesn't require a distinct pause at the end of each back and forward stroke. It is called "oval casting", and is the method I would teach to beginners who absolutely couldn't pick up on the correct timing of a conventional cast.

In oval casting you make big continuous oval motions (without a pause), but on an angle off to the side, so the line never crosses over itself to form the dreaded tailing loop because the line always follows the direction the tip is moving. It's actually a great way for an advanced caster to deal with strong wind as well, since the fly line is never suspended in mid-air for an instant like it is at the end of each conventional stroke.

The interesting thing to me is that this method mimics the way almost all pool players transition from back stroke to the forward stroke if they don't incorporate a pause at the end of the back stroke. Of course, this can be highly effective since most all pool players have no noticeable pause, and many of them are world-class players, but there are reasons why I switched from this method a while back.

I perceive my stroke as beginning at address, after any and all practice strokes are done. I settle, I trust that I've picked up the correct shot line, and then I pull my hand back straight along this line as I visualize it in my mind, in a manner similar to how you would pull a rubber band back to shoot it off your thumb. A longer bridge has helped me "see" this line as it relates to the cue.

I pause at the end of the backstroke and relax my grip, then just let my hand start to swing forward along the same plane it came back on, but without using any other force except gravity. As soon as I can see that cue is moving perfectly straight on the correct line, I begin to apply whatever force I need to accelerate the cue to the desired speed. By starting slowly from a distinct pause, I feel that I don't accidentally pull the cue off the desired line with a ill-timed application of power.

Yes, is it awkward and a bit uncomfortable at first, but it was worth it for me to make the switch. Stick with it for awhile, you may use it all the time. Heck, it was good enough for Buddy Hall, and very few have matched the relaxed perfection of his smooth-as-silk stroke. I'm at least a couple million strokes away from that, but so far it is working better for me than the short, compact, Hopkin-esque stroke I used most of my life.
 
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fishing, golf, tennis, hammering nails, and pool share the same characteristics

This sound familiar to you doesn't it? Although you still may be more familiar with the motion of the hammer - fishing, golf, tennis, hammering nails, and pool share the same characteristics in regards to the action of the wrist, hand and fingers.

I'll see you Thursday, I have some cool things to go over. Hope your holidays were pleasant, ttys.


yankee817299 said:
Good reply Sloppy Pockets. Makes a lot of sense.
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Cj, is there a safe way to 'put up dollars on a bet, say in escrow, to guarantee collection /payment on a bet? If I get one against Dallas?... Brenner
 
To see my techniques in action click here, it's easier to show than tell when it comes to fundamental teaching.


CJ Wiley said:
No, I don't use a slip stroke, although I may let the cue slip back as I'm targeting the cue ball (practice strokes).

When your hand slips back without deviating the cue it falls into a slot, or groove. Once you establish this slot/groove you want to strive to make the movement of the cue as efficient as possible. To do this consistently it's essential to maintain a connection that starts at the elbow, runs down the forearm, through the hand, all the way to the tip (you need your body connected to the tip because the tip is your only connection to the game).
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The biggest fault comes from accelerating too early in the forward motion

One Pocket John said:
Funny how you should mention this. I look at my cue as being a dart. (like throwing darts (QB) at a dart board (OB)) and aiming at a bullseye.
I guess I should explain what I mean by this, I use the right, center and left side of the cue for aiming at the contact point on the OB. Have been for decades, Feel very comfortable with this method.
I guess this is why TOI has been so easy for me to incorporate into my game.

Thanks again.

John
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Yes, the acceleration is much like throwing a dart, few players do this to their full potential. The biggest fault comes from accelerating too early in the forward motion of the cue. I have students count to two, then start the forward stoke as slow as possible, then build speed to the cue ball.
 
I've got 'that' E xtreame caution. I've tried a few times and it seems fruitless. Best just keep it up front w someone you know. Was trying to get into some action. W gal, but no brainer, it's done! Thank you for your concern /reply. Play well.! ☺
 
rennerb6 said:
I've got 'that' E xtreame caution. I've tried a few times and it seems fruitless. Best just keep it up front w someone you know. Was trying to get into some action. W gal, but no brainer, it's done! Thank you for your concern /reply. Play well.! ☺
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Don't forget to remember not to forget that.
 
Hey bro, that's ddaaammnn good advice.! Will not forget anytime soon! Thanks cj.! You're absolutely right. Back out bfor, I, step into a trap... Brenner
 
One Pocket John said:
I like my stroke to finish on every shot. Thats why my grip hand will change positions on the butt of the cue on every shot. Sometimes I'll have a 2" follow thru or it could be a 4" 6" 8" 10" or 12" follow thru.
I get what you all are saying but I always like my cue follow thru to end up at the same location on the finish of the stroke. ( the shooting arm cant go any further unless the elbow drops) and I try to keep that to a minimum))
Most of my shots are at a 6" to 8" follow thru.
This is all by the feel of the shot by the way.

Thanks for sharing. :smile:
John
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The snooker champion Ronnie O'Sullivan drops his elbow, and feels like he's hitting the "white" with his elbow. This gets everything to work as a unit, it's worth experimenting with.
 
Kenny's Barnheart, MO.

Had a great time at Kenny's playing a whole bunch of folks I have never played.
I entered this tourney to test everything I had been practicing for the last 8 months. I was looking for any kind of break down in my fundamentals (thanks Tor) and to test my banking, 1,2, and 3 rail kicking as shown on the videos.

Man, am I ever happy about watching and practicing all of this. It really came in handy.

On thing I didn't count on was playing on bar tables covered with simonis and fast rails. For on thing if you have been staring at a 9 footer for 4 years and then look at a bar table its a mind blower. They are so tiny. :)

We played 8 ball race to 3, 9 ball race to 4 and banks race to 3 (which I have never played in my life)

I know now, and it came late in the evening, that I should have been using TOI (inside center ball axis)on every shot for position. Leave the spin at home. I'll know better next time.

Did I win, place or show.........no. That wasn't the purpose of my entering.
I now have information, based on my playing, in areas that need to be fine tuned.

Had a lot of fun. To me, this is what the game is all about.

John
 
One Pocket John said:
Had a great time at Kenny's playing a whole bunch of folks I have never played.
I entered this tourney to test everything I had been practicing for the last 8 months. I was looking for any kind of break down in my fundamentals (thanks Tor) and to test my banking, 1,2, and 3 rail kicking as shown on the videos.

Man, am I ever happy about watching and practicing all of this. It really came in handy.

On thing I didn't count on was playing on bar tables covered with simonis and fast rails. For on thing if you have been staring at a 9 footer for 4 years and then look at a bar table its a mind blower. They are so tiny. :)

We played 8 ball race to 3, 9 ball race to 4 and banks race to 3 (which I have never played in my life)

I know now, and it came late in the evening, that I should have been using TOI (inside center ball axis)on every shot for position. Leave the spin at home. I'll know better next time.

Did I win, place or show.........no. That wasn't the purpose of my entering.
I now have information, based on my playing, in areas that need to be fine tuned.

Had a lot of fun. To me, this is what the game is all about.

John
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The for the positive post:)

Chrippa
 
Leave the spin at home - I'll know better next time.

One Pocket John said:
Had a great time at Kenny's playing a whole bunch of folks I have never played.
I entered this tourney to test everything I had been practicing for the last 8 months. I was looking for any kind of break down in my fundamentals (thanks Tor) and to test my banking, 1,2, and 3 rail kicking as shown on the videos.

Man, am I ever happy about watching and practicing all of this. It really came in handy.

On thing I didn't count on was playing on bar tables covered with simonis and fast rails. For on thing if you have been staring at a 9 footer for 4 years and then look at a bar table its a mind blower. They are so tiny. :)

We played 8 ball race to 3, 9 ball race to 4 and banks race to 3 (which I have never played in my life)

I know now, and it came late in the evening, that I should have been using TOI (inside center ball axis)on every shot for position. Leave the spin at home. I'll know better next time.

Did I win, place or show.........no. That wasn't the purpose of my entering.
I now have information, based on my playing, in areas that need to be fine tuned.

Had a lot of fun. To me, this is what the game is all about.

John
Click to expand...


It's so tempting to use spin, however, it's best to resist.
 
CJ Wiley said:
The snooker champion Ronnie O'Sullivan drops his elbow, and feels like he's hitting the "white" with his elbow. This gets everything to work as a unit, it's worth experimenting with.
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CJ, you are amazing. "Hitting" with my elbow is nothing short of a revalation. I'm not kidding, thanks so much.:idea:
 
From snooker superstar, Ronnie Sullivan.

Mitchxout said:
CJ, you are amazing. "Hitting" with my elbow is nothing short of a revalation. I'm not kidding, thanks so much.:idea:
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This "golden nugget" actually came from snooker superstar, Ronnie Sullivan.

9cbcdc2d07bb04ea462663cb8841a2df.jpg
 
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