A Question Of Rules VS. Ethics

[ne14tennis]

Just a short question on rules vs. ethics

I play league 2 nights per week. I try to make my league play by the rules and at our league meetings I try to encourage the league operators to make all the rules enforceable.....not just the ones they choose.

My reasoning is simple: It forces the players to learn and understand them which better prepares them to play at the higher level tournaments. I always pose the following when someone tells me that they don't like a certain rule, "You need to learn and abide by the rules because when you play someone from Houston, Dallas or Austin, they don't care if you use that rule in your league or not...a foul is a foul and they will call you on it".

So last night I scratch on the break in 8 ball, the opponent takes the rock and places it in the middle of the table, then he shoots. I call foul. Now the complaints begin.....I'm a cheater, I should have told him, etc., etc.

I reply with it's in the rules and it's not my job to protect you from yourself.

If this were a friendly game I probably would have told him but it wasn't. I play league like I play tournaments or gamble.....I play by the rules and I play to win.


What would you do?

 

[thomba02]

Just a short question on rules vs. ethics

To start off, I am a BCAPL National Referee and I play league 2 nights per week. Aside from the usual questions on rules every week, I try to make my league play by the rules and at our league meetings I try to encourage the league operators to make all the rules enforceable.....not just the ones they choose.

My reasoning is simple: It forces the players to learn and understand them which better prepares them to play at the higher level tournaments. I always pose the following when someone tells me that they don't like a certain rule, "You need to learn and abide by the rules because when you play someone from Houston, Dallas or Austin, they don't care if you use that rule in your league or not...a foul is a foul and they will call you on it".

So last night I scratch on the break in 8 ball, the opponent takes the rock and places it in the middle of the table, then he shoots. I call foul. Now the complaints begin.....I'm a cheater, I should have told him, etc., etc.

I reply with it's in the rules and it's not my job to protect you from yourself.

If this were a friendly game with someone I like, I probably would have told him but it wasn't. I play league like I play tournaments or gamble.....I play by the rules and I play to win.

On top of that, I don't like him or his team.

What would you do?

same thing you did...idiots need to learn from their mistakes.

 

[Purdman]

Just a short question on rules vs. ethics

To start off, I am a BCAPL National Referee and I play league 2 nights per week. Aside from the usual questions on rules every week, I try to make my league play by the rules and at our league meetings I try to encourage the league operators to make all the rules enforceable.....not just the ones they choose.

My reasoning is simple: It forces the players to learn and understand them which better prepares them to play at the higher level tournaments. I always pose the following when someone tells me that they don't like a certain rule, "You need to learn and abide by the rules because when you play someone from Houston, Dallas or Austin, they don't care if you use that rule in your league or not...a foul is a foul and they will call you on it".

So last night I scratch on the break in 8 ball, the opponent takes the rock and places it in the middle of the table, then he shoots. I call foul. Now the complaints begin.....I'm a cheater, I should have told him, etc., etc.

I reply with it's in the rules and it's not my job to protect you from yourself.

If this were a friendly game with someone I like, I probably would have told him but it wasn't. I play league like I play tournaments or gamble.....I play by the rules and I play to win.

On top of that, I don't like him or his team.

What would you do?[/QUOTE]

Grow up, it's just a game!
Peace, Purdman :smile:

 

[Barbara]

No, you're not a cheater and you're certainly not under the obligation to tell your opponent if they're in peril of fouling.

It's only happened to me a couple times, but I've told my opponent that they were about to foul by not contacting the lowest numbered ball on the table.

Then I wait to see if they thank me for it. That speaks volumes about their sportsmanship.

Then I tell them, "That one was free. Now you're on you're own for the rest of our match."

BTW, I though a scratch after the opening break was BIH anywhere on the table?

Barbara

Just a short question on rules vs. ethics

To start off, I am a BCAPL National Referee and I play league 2 nights per week. Aside from the usual questions on rules every week, I try to make my league play by the rules and at our league meetings I try to encourage the league operators to make all the rules enforceable.....not just the ones they choose.

My reasoning is simple: It forces the players to learn and understand them which better prepares them to play at the higher level tournaments. I always pose the following when someone tells me that they don't like a certain rule, "You need to learn and abide by the rules because when you play someone from Houston, Dallas or Austin, they don't care if you use that rule in your league or not...a foul is a foul and they will call you on it".

So last night I scratch on the break in 8 ball, the opponent takes the rock and places it in the middle of the table, then he shoots. I call foul. Now the complaints begin.....I'm a cheater, I should have told him, etc., etc.

I reply with it's in the rules and it's not my job to protect you from yourself.

If this were a friendly game with someone I like, I probably would have told him but it wasn't. I play league like I play tournaments or gamble.....I play by the rules and I play to win.

On top of that, I don't like him or his team.

What would you do?

 

[tigerallenyim]

Just a short question on rules vs. ethics

To start off, I am a BCAPL National Referee and I play league 2 nights per week. Aside from the usual questions on rules every week, I try to make my league play by the rules and at our league meetings I try to encourage the league operators to make all the rules enforceable.....not just the ones they choose.

My reasoning is simple: It forces the players to learn and understand them which better prepares them to play at the higher level tournaments. I always pose the following when someone tells me that they don't like a certain rule, "You need to learn and abide by the rules because when you play someone from Houston, Dallas or Austin, they don't care if you use that rule in your league or not...a foul is a foul and they will call you on it".

So last night I scratch on the break in 8 ball, the opponent takes the rock and places it in the middle of the table, then he shoots. I call foul. Now the complaints begin.....I'm a cheater, I should have told him, etc., etc.

I reply with it's in the rules and it's not my job to protect you from yourself.

If this were a friendly game with someone I like, I probably would have told him but it wasn't. I play league like I play tournaments or gamble.....I play by the rules and I play to win.

On top of that, I don't like him or his team.

What would you do?

In your case, they are taking the foul TOO personally, rather than looking at things objectively, and determine that ur action was correct. A foul is a foul. If they don't understand the rules, then they need to read it to avoid a loss, foul, and any undesired results.

Normally, when I feel a foul is about to occur, I have to allow it to happen... I mean, who knows? The foul may not actually occur. Give the opponent a chance to get-out.

If the foul does occur, I ask to confirm it is a foul... if that ask why, I tell them the reason for the foul. From that point on, it is up to the opponent to agree or disagree, for in the APA it goes to the shooter. Whatever the opponent decides after that, I have to deal with it.

 

[ScottW]

BTW, I though a scratch after the opening break was BIH anywhere on the table?

9-ball, yes. He stated they were playing 8-ball - so it's BIH in the kitchen. His opponent apparently placed the cue ball outside the kitchen.

IMHO that's a rookie mistake - he should be mad at himself for making such a goof

 

[soulcatcher]

On top of that, I don't like him or his team.

What would you do?

I would have done the same.

The first thing I do when I bring in a new player to my team, is I hand them the rule book, and tell them to take it home and read it, bring it back next week. That way, they should know what is or is not a foul.

And we all have those players/teams that we just don't like, so any rule infringement gets called.

 

[steev]

This is a little off-topic, but I have to ask the OP/ref. To my understanding, your opponent's actions weren't a foul. You had the right to make him place the CB behind the headstring, but that's it. If you let him shoot from there, it's done and gone. Same as someone breaking from in front of the headstring...

right? or am i crazy?

-s

edit: I can't answer the poll, as I do all these things, depending on the situation and my relationship with the opponent.

 

[ScottW]

This is a little off-topic, but I have to ask the OP/ref. To my understanding, your opponent's actions weren't a foul. You had the right to make him place the CB behind the headstring, but that's it. If you let him shoot from there, it's done and gone. Same as someone breaking from in front of the headstring...

right? or am i crazy?

You're crazy!

A foul is not dependent on someone ELSE warning a player about it - it is dependent on the player's action(s).

What if the offending player had the cue ball in hand - stuck it on the table outside the kitchen and shot, all within a second? His opponent would have no time to tell the player he was about to foul.

 

[jongreve]

Friendly "for fun" game: Wait till they shoot, explain the foul, let them continue.

Weekly league play: Warn them first. If an argument arises, find a knowledgable 3rd party to watch the shot.

Tourney or gamble: Let them shoot. Followed by "Boy I bet you weren't trying to do THAT" along with smirks and/or chuckles as I take ball in hand.

 

[mullyman]

I'm going to be the odd man out here but I'd warn them first. I couldn't care less if they thank me for it or not. All I know is at the end of the day I did the right thing. Whether they would afford me the same courtesy doesn't matter to me at all. When all is said and done people will know that MULLY doesn't pull any punches and he's a good guy to shoot with. I'm not against any of you that wouldn't do the same thing. You gotta play the way you play and if you're content with letting them foul when you could have prevented it then so be it. If we all agreed on everything this world would be a really boring place.
MULLY

 

[soulcatcher]

This is a little off-topic, but I have to ask the OP/ref. To my understanding, your opponent's actions weren't a foul. You had the right to make him place the CB behind the headstring, but that's it. If you let him shoot from there, it's done and gone. Same as someone breaking from in front of the headstring...

right? or am i crazy?

-s

edit: I can't answer the poll, as I do all these things, depending on the situation and my relationship with the opponent.

Depends on the league. Valley, it is a foul by the shooting player. APA it's not a foul, but if you see they are setting up outside the kitchen, you can tell them they need to put it in the kitchen. If you don't, and they shoot, there is nothing you can do.

 

[ne14tennis]

This is a little off-topic, but I have to ask the OP/ref. To my understanding, your opponent's actions weren't a foul. You had the right to make him place the CB behind the headstring, but that's it. If you let him shoot from there, it's done and gone. Same as someone breaking from in front of the headstring...

right? or am i crazy?

-s

edit: I can't answer the poll, as I do all these things, depending on the situation and my relationship with the opponent.

Incorrect sir,

The rules state that after a scartch on the break, the incomming player has BIH in the Kitchen.

Furthermore, if they place the cue ball within the width of 1/2 a ball over the headstring, it is my responsibility to warn them. If they don't move it back and shoot anyway....it's a foul. If I don't warn them and they shoot then it's too bad for me, no foul occured. When the cue ball is clearly placed more than a ball width past the headstring, no warning is needed and after the shoot you may call foul and take BIH. I suppose the rule is like that so if you're just bad at measuring....they cut you a break :grin:
If you place it way over the line....it's time to read the rulebook

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Furthermore, if they place the cue ball within the width of the ball over the headstring, it is my responsibility to warn them. If they don't move it back and shoot anyway....it's a foul. If I don't warn them and they shoot then it's too bad for me, no foul occured. When the cue ball is clearly placed more than a ball width past the headstring, no warning is needed ...

Under the current WPA rules, no warning is required in either case. If a player with BIH shoots with a misplaced cue ball, it is a foul. Further, the referee must not warn the player that the ball is over the line. In an unrefereed league, this rule is a problem, so the "warn if close" is a better way to do it.

The WPA rule is a change from how US rules used to be. I was refereeing in a 14.1 world championship and one of the players, whom I'd describe as an obnoxious weasel, twice placed the cue ball slightly over the line with BIH. I think he was doing it just to cause a commotion.

As for the original question, in an informal match, I often do what Barbara mentioned: the first warning is free.

 

[Bigtruck]

Well

Just a short question on rules vs. ethics

To start off, I am a BCAPL National Referee and I play league 2 nights per week. Aside from the usual questions on rules every week, I try to make my league play by the rules and at our league meetings I try to encourage the league operators to make all the rules enforceable.....not just the ones they choose.

My reasoning is simple: It forces the players to learn and understand them which better prepares them to play at the higher level tournaments. I always pose the following when someone tells me that they don't like a certain rule, "You need to learn and abide by the rules because when you play someone from Houston, Dallas or Austin, they don't care if you use that rule in your league or not...a foul is a foul and they will call you on it".

So last night I scratch on the break in 8 ball, the opponent takes the rock and places it in the middle of the table, then he shoots. I call foul. Now the complaints begin.....I'm a cheater, I should have told him, etc., etc.

I reply with it's in the rules and it's not my job to protect you from yourself.

If this were a friendly game with someone I like, I probably would have told him but it wasn't. I play league like I play tournaments or gamble.....I play by the rules and I play to win.

On top of that, I don't like him or his team.

What would you do?

Did your team win the match?

Ray

 

[Brklyn]

This happened to me at the BCA tourney in Vegas. I'm a 9-ball player and only play 8 ball once a year at this tourney. I knew this rule, but in the intensity of the moment I forgot. My opponent broke and sent the cue ball flying off the table. I took ball in hand in the middle of the table and she called the foul. I would not have expected my opponent to have told me, and she did not. This was my mistake - one that I will NEVER make again.

Another mistake that I will NEVER make again - I was playing in a JPNEWT event and got my opponent on 2 fouls. I safed her pretty good and was convinced I now had her on 3 fouls. She got up to the table and missed the object ball. Great - I won that game. WRONG!!! - I forgot to tell her she was on 2 fouls and she called me on it. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

[ne14tennis]

Yuppers

Did your team win the match?

Ray

Ya, and the game in question won us the round :thumbup:

 

[Vinnie]

I think it depends on who I am playing. If I am playing an experienced player, I will not give a warning. If it is a "banger" I would probably give a warning. The most common unaware foul I see is when a beginner gets ball in hand and then places the cue ball about an inch from the object ball and shoots at it. This happened the other night at a local 9-ball tourney. The banger got ball in hand, placed it right up close to the 1-ball and then shot the 1-9 combo. It was very obvious that he double hit the cue ball. I was not playing him and his opponent did not call the foul, but after the match I told him that if it were me playing, I would have called the foul and explained that he double hit the cue ball. Of course he denied it and once again I had to explain double hits. That is why it is a good idea to explain the double hit to beginners before they shoot the shot.

 

[Dawgie]

I agree with "let them foul". It certainly isn't required to inform your opponent he/she is about to foul. In addition fouls aren't rated 1 thru 10 in order that you can judge which ones are worse then the others. All fouls are just that - fouls-.

If you're in a tournament you would be foolish to inform your opponent. So just operate from there. This way you get used to the rules and play by them, ALL THE TIME.

 

[accustatsfan]

I was a kid learning the game I played with adults the rule was "know the rules" unless its a bizarre local rule its shooter beware.

The local bar league I play decided to not enforce certain rules (seems to differ every season). Because they want it "easier" to understand.

Is there a forum member skilled in international relations that can get a bar league to follow rules explaining or referencing rulebooks gets you nowhere.

There must be a thread about accepted local oddball rules. I learned 8 ball was call shot and last pocket the first time I played official rules I thought what a easy game.