A Question Of Rules VS. Ethics

[Gregg]

To be as direct as possible, I would inform the shooter he will foul before I could stop it if I like or am indifferent to the shooter, no matter what the stakes. I don't want to win BIH on a technicality.

Now, that said, we shoot teams that rather win a game/match on a foul, rather than by winning outright. We all know who they are in our own local areas, and well, you better believe I would let them foul before I could stop them and then call it. I can cite about half a dozen incidents where their entire team knew a foul was upcoming, and they decided not to mention it. We had a guy on our team not mark the pocket on an eight ball that was hanging, with the cue ball a foot away. He shot it in with no marker, and they called a foul. He never played in league again.

 

[Tin Man]

foul play

I posed this question once before- if they are about to shoot the wrong ball, should you warn them?

The answer is no.

In a refereed match on TV the ref doesn't tell the player which ball to shoot. They would simply wait until the ball was struck and then call foul.

In a non-refereed match the non-shooting player assumes the role of the referee. It is not your job, therefore, to advise the player at the table.

Whether that specific situations require warning/acknowledgment, however, is unclear to me.

 

[Fuji-whopper]

This happened last Sunday at our weekly tournament, one of the top guys I was playing against was lining up on the 3-ball while the 2 was still on the table. I shouted his name and told him that the 2-ball was in play and that he was about to foul, he appreciated it and ran out. Ended up losing that match 6-7 but I would rather do that then watch him foul if I knew beforehand that he was going to foul.

Sometimes you can catch it in time and sometimes you can't, sometimes you are blankly looking at the table and don't catch it and sometimes you do. The way I want to live my life is the way I treat others, with respect and fairness.

 

[Jack Montgomery]

Friendly game - tell them prior. League / tournament game, you are and should be playing to win, and it is in no way your place to be a rulebook for your opponent. Let them foul and then call it, without a doubt.

 

[Cuebacca]

This happened last Sunday at our weekly tournament, one of the top guys I was playing against was lining up on the 3-ball while the 2 was still on the table. I shouted his name and told him that the 2-ball was in play and that he was about to foul, he appreciated it and ran out. Ended up losing that match 6-7 but I would rather do that then watch him foul if I knew beforehand that he was going to foul.

Sometimes you can catch it in time and sometimes you can't, sometimes you are blankly looking at the table and don't catch it and sometimes you do. The way I want to live my life is the way I treat others, with respect and fairness.

I solute you for doing that and if it feels right, then by all means. However, I don't this it would be poor character in the least to let the guy hit the 3-ball and then call foul.

Since he is obviously good enough to know better, he must have been slightly off his mental game to not have noticed the 2-ball on the table. The mental game is part of pool.

This would be similar to if he had not noticed an easy safety and gone for a tough shot instead and missed. I see no reason to feel obligated to coach good players during a competitive match.

In some situations I would tell the person, but in others I wouldn't, depending on several factors. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Cuebacca]

I solute you for doing that and if it feels right, then by all means. However, I don't this it would be poor character in the least to let the guy hit the 3-ball and then call foul.

Since he is obviously good enough to know better, he must have been slightly off his mental game to not have noticed the 2-ball on the table. The mental game is part of pool.

This would be similar to if he had not noticed an easy safety and gone for a tough shot instead and missed. I see no reason to feel obligated to coach good players during a competitive match.

In some situations I would tell the person, but in others I wouldn't, depending on several factors. Just my humble opinion.

I should add that the sad thing is that some do look at this as an ethical issue. I think some people would really think it's shady to let them shoot at the wrong ball which is a little peculiar to me. I guess with that in mind, maybe it's better to always tell people rather than looking shady when you're really not. LOL.

 

[Barbara]

As for the original question, in an informal match, I often do what Barbara mentioned: the first warning is free.

I learned that one from you! :thumbup:

Barbara

 

[Fuji-whopper]

Well to give a llittle background (if that makes any difference at all) the person I was playing is a local whom I have gotten to know very well since I first moved here 6 years ago. We talk every week and are good friends, have a good amount of mutual respect for each other and like each other's company. Sure we are competitive and it's in a tournament but in my mind, which may be a little askew, I would have been distracted the remainder of the match and felt wrong about letting him foul.

That doesn't mean I don't think someone is wrong or morally corrupt by not warning them, it just means that this is what I chose/will choose to do in ANY situation. But that's just me, right or wrong.

 

[cigardave]

Incorrect sir,

The rules state that after a scartch on the break, the incomming player has BIH in the Kitchen.

Furthermore, if they place the cue ball within the width of the ball over the headstring, it is my responsibility to warn them. If they don't move it back and shoot anyway....it's a foul. If I don't warn them and they shoot then it's too bad for me, no foul occured. When the cue ball is clearly placed more than a ball width past the headstring, no warning is needed and after the shoot you may call foul and take BIH. I suppose the rule is like that so if you're just bad at measuring....they cut you a break :grin:
If you place it way over the line....it's time to read the rulebook

IIRC, the BCA rule in this regard does not differentiate how far over the headstring the cue need be inadvertantly placed before the opponent doesn't have the obligation to warn the shooter that the cue ball must be in the kitchen in this situation.

The 8-ball league that I ran for years applied the rule assuming the shooter placed it anywhere over the headstring... and I consistently ruled that the opponent can't call a foul unless they have first warned the shooter that they must be in the kitchen. No warning... shooter shoots... the shot stands.

ne14tennis - Where does the one-ball width criterion come from? I have never heard of it. Is it in a variant of the rules?... or is it a local league interpretation?

Thx, cd

 

[Cuebacca]

Well to give a llittle background (if that makes any difference at all) the person I was playing is a local whom I have gotten to know very well since I first moved here 6 years ago. We talk every week and are good friends, have a good amount of mutual respect for each other and like each other's company. Sure we are competitive and it's in a tournament but in my mind, which may be a little askew, I would have been distracted the remainder of the match and felt wrong about letting him foul.

That doesn't mean I don't think someone is wrong or morally corrupt by not warning them, it just means that this is what I chose/will choose to do in ANY situation. But that's just me, right or wrong.

I can understand that and I think a lot of people would agree. I think you did the right thing given your description of the background.

But just as a counter-point to that philosophy, I try to put myself in the shoes of the guy shooting the wrong ball. If I'm about to do something like that, I hope that no one tells me. If they do, I'll definitely appreciate it and will switch to shooting the correct ball. But from a long-term perspective I hope that no one tells me and just lets me foul. That way I'll hopefully learn to be more mentally aware at the table in the future.

 

[Fuji-whopper]

I can understand that and I think a lot of people would agree. I think you did the right thing given your description of the background.

But just as a counter-point to that philosophy, I try to put myself in the shoes of the guy shooting the wrong ball. If I'm about to do something like that, I hope that no one tells me. If they do, I'll definitely appreciate it and will switch to shooting the correct ball. But from a long-term perspective I hope that no one tells me and just lets me foul. That way I'll hopefully learn to be more mentally aware at the table in the future.

You're right, it's my mistake if I didn't see the right ball and I would feel just as guilty if he told me that I was shooting the wrong ball as I would if I didn't tell him he was shooting the wrong ball. Guess I feel too guilty or conscious about what happens during the match, I also apologize for fluking a ball in or making the 9-ball on the break.

Tony Crosby said I was too nice of a guy at the table and I needed more kill in me, even gave me the name of a book to read to get some killer instinct. Maybe it's time to fire up a book or two on the subject?

 

[Cuebacca]

You're right, it's my mistake if I didn't see the right ball and I would feel just as guilty if he told me that I was shooting the wrong ball as I would if I didn't tell him he was shooting the wrong ball. Guess I feel too guilty or conscious about what happens during the match, I also apologize for fluking a ball in or making the 9-ball on the break.

Tony Crosby said I was too nice of a guy at the table and I needed more kill in me, even gave me the name of a book to read to get some killer instinct. Maybe it's time to fire up a book or two on the subject?

LOL, damn, I have the same problem sometimes. What's the book he recommended... is it The Art of War? I think I should read it too.

 

[ne14tennis]

Rule Deleted With New Bcapl Rulebook

IIRC, the BCA rule in this regard does not differentiate how far over the headstring the cue need be inadvertantly placed before the opponent doesn't have the obligation to warn the shooter that the cue ball must be in the kitchen in this situation.

The 8-ball league that I ran for years applied the rule assuming the shooter placed it anywhere over the headstring... and I consistently ruled that the opponent can't call a foul unless they have first warned the shooter that they must be in the kitchen. No warning... shooter shoots... the shot stands.

ne14tennis - Where does the one-ball width criterion come from? I have never heard of it. Is it in a variant of the rules?... or is it a local league interpretation?

Thx, cd

The Rule 1.37 was deleted from the New BCAPL Rulebook date 1 June 2008. The old rule was as listed below.

1.37 Past the Head String Warning (see Diagram 8)
1. If your opponent has cue ball in hand behind the head string and places the cue ball on the head string or within ? ball width outside of the kitchen, you must warn the player of the improper cue ball position before the shot is taken. If you do not give this warning and your opponent shoots, the cue ball placement is considered legal.
2. If your opponent places the cue ball completely and obviously outside of the kitchen (beyond the ? ball width), you do not have to give the warning and if they shoot it is a foul.

 

[jsp]

Your poll is missing an obvious option.

I would yell out (very loudly) "YOU'RE GONNA FOUL!" just as he begins his final stroke towards the CB. Doing this achieves three things...

1) Technically, you did start to warn him before he completed his shot, freeing yourself from the ethical accusation that you should have warned him before his shot. If he complains that you warned him too late, you could always say that you assumed that he just was scoping out where he wanted the CB to end up after his behind-the-kitchen shot. Also, add that you didn't think he was actually going stroke it until the very last moment.

2) Unless he has Tiger Woods-abilities and can stop his stroke on a dime as he already started forward with his cue, he'll almost certainly commit the foul anyway, probably even miscuing, giving you BIH and the upperhand in that game.

3) Most importantly, the mid-stroke disruption would rattle his nerves, which may adversely affect his play for the remainder of the match.

It's a win-win-win situation. He fouls, you don't feel bad about it, and you rattle him up. :thumbup:

 

[spktur]

I assume you mean obvious fouls such as shooting the wrong ball as was described placing the ball outside of the kitchen. I'll tell them because to me i answer to myself not a rule book and i want be able to say I beat them on the table. Same thing if they don't call their pocket on a simple straight in i won't call it, again if I can't beat them I won't try to steal it on a rule technicality. A yes i know others will on me but i don't answer to them I answer to me.

 

[DRW]

This is a little off-topic, but I have to ask the OP/ref. To my understanding, your opponent's actions weren't a foul. You had the right to make him place the CB behind the headstring, but that's it. If you let him shoot from there, it's done and gone. Same as someone breaking from in front of the headstring...

right? or am i crazy?

-s

edit: I can't answer the poll, as I do all these things, depending on the situation and my relationship with the opponent.

right? or crazy? Crazy! It is the rule in both APA and BCA leagues. You are under no obligation to tell the person before hand, even though I do. Teammates get on my case all the time about it. If I don't get a thank you, it will surely be the last for that person.

 

[Jimmy M.]

While it certainly doesn't violate any rules to knowingly sit there and let your opponent foul, it isn't something that I could do and then feel good about winning.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Tony Crosby said I was too nice of a guy at the table and I needed more kill in me, even gave me the name of a book to read to get some killer instinct. Maybe it's time to fire up a book or two on the subject?

What was the book?

 

[Fuji-whopper]

LOL, damn, I have the same problem sometimes. What's the book he recommended... is it The Art of War? I think I should read it too.

Read that book, 48 Laws of Power, Golf is not a game of perfect, Zen Golf, Inner game of Tennis and many other books along those lines. The book he recommended is The Game I believe, it's expensive $50+ I believe so that's whats keeping me from buying it at this time. I'm sure Tony would give the name to anyone who would ask, will send him a PM later to double check the name of the book.

 

[steev]

right? or crazy? Crazy! It is the rule in both APA and BCA leagues.

I play VNEA... and I looked it up and I'm right for my league...

http://www.vnea.com/pdf/2007/VNEA Ruleofplay/8-Ball Rules.pdf

see section B-6

-s


for the record, I think it should always be a foul. but rules is rules...




edit: that's on the break only...i shouoldn't post under the influence. if you look further (and i know you will) at H-14 you'll see i'm crazy after all.