A reality check on aiming systems of all kinds

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
If I score better than you then does that mean I am right?
Yup

I actually feel kind of bad for you. If I get to the point with pool where I'm ambivalent to get on the table I'll just hang it up and move on. Pool is the pool table and everything on and around it.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Yup

I actually feel kind of bad for you. If I get to the point with pool where I'm ambivalent to get on the table I'll just hang it up and move on. Pool is the pool table and everything on and around it.
Well, let's hope you don't get there. In addition to my physical issues I have a family, a business, and several houses to take care of. Pool is 4th or lower on my current list of priorities. The investment in time vs what I would need to give up on other areas contrasted with the probable improvement gain isn't worth it right now.

Regarding the idea that if I score better than you in any shotmaking test then that makes me right.... You know full well that that is complete bullshit. Now if 100 people take the same test and the aiming system users are the high scorers then perhaps that amount of data has some correlation to the method of aim used when controlled for the other variables.

Here is a basic difference.

I love pool enough to want to help people get better and take joy in their improvement. People who spend their time knocking aiming systems and denigrating aiming system users don't seem to really like this sport because they spend time trying to drive people away from learning more about the game.

The way a player's eyes light up when they build their skills and experience clear improvement is a really satisfying feeling. Last night a guy stopped me to tell me that his jumping is on point after a clinic I gave a few weeks ago. I see people knocking jump cues and denigrating jump cue users and think to myself these people bitch about the decline of pool while they actively put down those who want to enjoy the game.

Two days ago we sold a $1000 case to an APA 3 who has been playing less than a year. She also owns several thousand in cues. Maybe you all would feel better if she wasn't interested in pool and spent her time and money elsewhere. Because this is exactly the type of person who will go find a more pleasurable activity when the people she is trying to get advice from decide to tell her that she is self-deluded for expressing joy at learning a method that knockers don't like.

You could make your points about the value ratio of fundamentals vs systems with denigrating a single person in any way. But instead you choose to put down those who enjoy learning things that you personally don't like.

My daughter likes sunny side up eggs. She would feel like shit or get pissed off if I told her that people who like their eggs that way are dumber than other people.

Myself, Stan and every other outspoken CTE user are fully clear that fundamentals are extremely important. We are also clear that bad fundamentals will absolutely reduce the pocketing success despite being on the right shot line.

So it's not like people are not aware of this. This forum is about aiming. Why not simply let those who want to talk about aiming do that in peace?

There is really no good reason to be negative.

One player said to me last night concerning aiming systems, "hell yes I am looking for magic bullets because I want to win and anything that can help me play better is something I am interested in learning." I said in response, I think we are not looking for magic bullets but instead reliable tools. He agreed with that.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
People don't criticize all aiming systems, just the ones lacking in proof.

IMO, those that speak up to point out inconsistencies and problems in any kind of system or methodology or product love the sport far more than those who turn a blind eye to these kinds of issues.

As to knocking any particular individual, typically they bring that on themselves ;-) Open any thread here and that is clear to anyone with fourth grade reading comprehension and who can follow a discussion to see how it devolves when "believers" turn to ad hominem attacks rather than logic.

Lou Figueroa
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Myself, Stan and every other outspoken CTE user are fully clear that fundamentals are extremely important. We are also clear that bad fundamentals will absolutely reduce the pocketing success despite being on the right shot line.
So it's not like people are not aware of this. This forum is about aiming. Why not simply let those who want to talk about aiming do that in peace?
There is really no good reason to be negative.
One player said to me last night concerning aiming systems, "hell yes I am looking for magic bullets because I want to win and anything that can help me play better is something I am interested in learning." I said in response, I think we are not looking for magic bullets but instead reliable tools. He agreed with that.
John, you're so right.
All we ever wanted was to discover and use reliable tools to pocket the balls better. Been saying that for YEARS.
However, "The Fig", "The White", and "The Johnson" have raved and ranted for YEARS, that CTE is not a reliable tool.
The same trio has raved and ranted about Stan Shuffett being a con man, a huckster, a snake oil peddler, a guy who promises "some kind of book" and never delivers, a guy who promises "free videos of what it can do" and never delivers...then when he does deliver the same group continues to rant and rave about "it's boring", "I went to sleep", "I found flaws in his presentations", "it isn't logical", "it can't be proven", etc. etc.
The same trio that "plays innocent" with horse puckey comments like...…"we just want civil logical discussion"...……..while they trash the method and the man relentlessly.
I, myself, laid some trash talk on Brian Crist's "Poolology" a while back because I considered it complicated (to me). But I never said it didn't work or nobody but a fool would buy it or that he was a little swindler. I did say he wasn't as hot of a player as he THOUGHT he was after I saw him choke to death against Arannis and give away his money, but since then I've left Brian Crist and his Poolology alone.
"The Fig", "The White", and "The Johnson" will NEVER stop with their trashing, though, and leave us alone. In a real live pool room, some thug would've already busted them across the face with a pool cue for being such knockers.
It's just something they cannot control.
Keep an eye on this post, my man. It won't be here long. "The White" will have it deleted and have me kicked out of here like he did to Spider.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Keep an eye on this post, my man. It won't be here long. "The White" will have it deleted and have me kicked out of here like he did to Spider.
What a shame - and all your posts (this one's a perfect example) are chock full of useful information about CTE.

pj
chgo
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
Well, let's hope you don't get there. In addition to my physical issues I have a family, a business, and several houses to take care of. Pool is 4th or lower on my current list of priorities. The investment in time vs what I would need to give up on other areas contrasted with the probable improvement gain isn't worth it right now.

Regarding the idea that if I score better than you in any shotmaking test then that makes me right.... You know full well that that is complete bullshit. Now if 100 people take the same test and the aiming system users are the high scorers then perhaps that amount of data has some correlation to the method of aim used when controlled for the other variables.

Here is a basic difference.

I love pool enough to want to help people get better and take joy in their improvement. People who spend their time knocking aiming systems and denigrating aiming system users don't seem to really like this sport because they spend time trying to drive people away from learning more about the game.

The way a player's eyes light up when they build their skills and experience clear improvement is a really satisfying feeling. Last night a guy stopped me to tell me that his jumping is on point after a clinic I gave a few weeks ago. I see people knocking jump cues and denigrating jump cue users and think to myself these people bitch about the decline of pool while they actively put down those who want to enjoy the game.

Two days ago we sold a $1000 case to an APA 3 who has been playing less than a year. She also owns several thousand in cues. Maybe you all would feel better if she wasn't interested in pool and spent her time and money elsewhere. Because this is exactly the type of person who will go find a more pleasurable activity when the people she is trying to get advice from decide to tell her that she is self-deluded for expressing joy at learning a method that knockers don't like.

You could make your points about the value ratio of fundamentals vs systems with denigrating a single person in any way. But instead you choose to put down those who enjoy learning things that you personally don't like.

My daughter likes sunny side up eggs. She would feel like shit or get pissed off if I told her that people who like their eggs that way are dumber than other people.

Myself, Stan and every other outspoken CTE user are fully clear that fundamentals are extremely important. We are also clear that bad fundamentals will absolutely reduce the pocketing success despite being on the right shot line.

So it's not like people are not aware of this. This forum is about aiming. Why not simply let those who want to talk about aiming do that in peace?

There is really no good reason to be negative.

One player said to me last night concerning aiming systems, "hell yes I am looking for magic bullets because I want to win and anything that can help me play better is something I am interested in learning." I said in response, I think we are not looking for magic bullets but instead reliable tools. He agreed with that.
You may be on to something John. I believe aiming better will help all level of players and I never said otherwise.

My contention is there are so many things a person can do in pool to bullet proof their game that aiming gets too much attention. Until you can deliver the cue ball where you need to everything else is putting the cart before the horse.

Here's the rub though. In the minds of CTE people there is NO other aiming system. Go back and read my OP here. Did I single out CTE? No but you all know I'm denigrating you personally because CTE is the only aiming system you worship. I did not mention CTE yet out come the antibodies to fend off the attack. Not one time did I mention that particular aiming system in this thread before this post yet out comes the long knives.

BTW I have never been particularly good at ball pocketing drills. Look at Brian, his fargo is right there with us and he hit 46 in a row. So we must have other tricks in our bag besides aiming to defeat him half the time right?

You tell me to let those who want to talk about aiming do so in peace because that's what this forum is for? A simple non mouse click by you takes care of it. Followed by some keystrokes that don't happen. Instead you ramble on and on.

And another thing, you aren't the only one with a busy life. I run a demanding business 50-60 hours a week. Build cues in my spare time. Have a needy wife and a ten year old daughter that I spend as much time with as they need. And there is a decent chance I'm older than you are. Not sure.

And I run a BCA pool league here, one of the first in the country to report to Fargorate.

Yet in spite of it all you have managed to log more games into Fargorate than I have. Self evident.
 
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JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
You may be on to something John. I believe aiming better will help all level of players and I never said otherwise.

My contention is there are so many things a person can do in pool to bullet proof their game that aiming gets too much attention. Until you can deliver the cue ball where you need to everything else is putting the cart before the horse.

Here's the rub though. In the minds of CTE people there is NO other aiming system. Go back and read my OP here. Did I single out CTE? No but you all know I'm denigrating you personally because CTE is the only aiming system you worship. I did not mention CTE yet out come the antibodies to fend off the attack. Not one time did I mention that particular aiming system in this thread before this post yet out comes the long knives.

BTW I have never been particularly good at ball pocketing drills. Look at Brian, his fargo is right there with us and he hit 46 in a row. So we must have other tricks in our bag besides aiming to defeat him half the time right?

You tell me to let those who want to talk about aiming do so in peace because that's what this forum is for? A simple non mouse click by you takes care of it. Followed by some keystrokes that don't happen. Instead you ramble on and on.

And another thing, you aren't the only one with a busy life. I run a demanding business 50-60 hours a week. Build cues in my spare time. Have a needy wife and a ten year old daughter that I spend as much time with as they need. And there is a decent chance I'm older than you are. Not sure.

And I run a BCA pool league here, one of the first in the country to report to Fargorate.

Yet in spite of it all you have managed to log more games into Fargorate than I have. Self evident.
Because when fargo was introduced I spent time promoting it and helping to create events where people can get lots of games in. Plus there were events from previous years that were already in.

I didn't say I haven't played I said I have no extra time to be dedicated to improvement right now. I said my body and my eyesight are deteriorating which makes it harder to play now.

Also I haven't even tried the half ball spot shot challenge yet. Haven't had time to go to the training facility and shoot it on the 9ft with tight pockets.

Once again though the point is that you can make your point without the nasty magic pill comments.

If you notice I say aiming systems users and don't say CTE is the only one that works. Cte happens to be the one that works best for me.

Your previous comments about cte users are clear enough indication that your denigration includes them and is likely to be the first target you think of.

Spot shot Kenny would make hundreds of spot shots in a row. That is zero indication that he could have made the shot ten times in a row if the object ball were moved six inches to either side.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Also, what you are asking for is that you get to attack and knock and I shouldn't respond. I asked you to let people talk about aiming in peace. You turning around and saying that your version of peace is that you get to knock and denigrate without pushback is really silly.

Again the difference is that with this post you are essentially saying that whomever doesn't meet your arbitrary standard of fundamentals is stupid for looking at aiming systems and those of us who use aiming systems never say that players are stupid if they don't.

You need to reread your original post and maybe if you try to see it from a different perspective you might see what I mean. I think you know what I mean clearly but that allowing people to discuss peacefully is not your motivation.
 
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canwin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Also, what you are asking for is that you get to attack and knock and I shouldn't respond. I asked you to let people talk about aiming in peace. You turning around and saying that your version of peace is that you get to knock and denigrate without pushback is really silly.

Again the difference is that with this post you are essentially saying that whomever doesn't meet your arbitrary standard of fundamentals is stupid for looking at aiming systems and those of us who use aiming systems never say that players are stupid of they don't.

You need to reread your original post and maybe if you try to see it from a different perspective you might see what I mean. I think you know what I mean clearly but that allowing people to discuss peacefully is not your motivation.
You say cte works best for you but I notice you dont have cue ball control or play shape for any next ball in your demonstrations. Is there a specific reason why you dont feel shape is a factor besides aiming or do you feel you dont need to using your cte
 

canwin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You say cte works best for you but I notice you dont have cue ball control or play shape for any next ball in your demonstrations. Is there a specific reason why you dont feel shape is a factor besides aiming or do you feel you dont need to using your cte
your cte demonstrations
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In a real live pool room, some thug would've already busted them across the face with a pool cue for being such knockers.
...kicked out of here like he did to Spider.
This is not a pool room. The statements made herein ARE what's in contention. If you cannot address the merits of Counter Thunk Estimates then why would you expect the questioners to go away?
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is not a pool room. The statements made herein ARE what's in contention. If you cannot address the merits of Counter Thunk Estimates then why would you expect the questioners to go away?
*sigh*….I guess because I'm just a sucker for human nature and keep thinking that even the most hardened individuals will eventually leave others alone to aim a pool ball any way they choose...without heaping ridicule and skepticism on them or the man who put it all together, Stan Shuffett, who is a good friend of mine.
I was able to do that with Brian Crist and his Poolology…I stopped trashing him and his method. If his fraction method works good for him and his followers, that's okay with me. Why can't others do the same concerning MY chosen method?
This is Easter Sunday, the day that shook the Roman Empire when my savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
Enjoy this day, Straightline, don't forget to pray and shake someone's hand every day.:)🎚️(y)
Regards,
Peter Lowenstein
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
There are many exercises to check stroke and aim. One of the ones I think is most fun is to try to hit the object ball so thinly that it hardly moves. Once the distances and speed increases it gets trickier and trickier. One of the most satisfying things to me is to hit the ball so thinly that it just wobbles in place. Now, THAT is hard to do.

The rationale is that if you know where the edge of the ball is (and are able to hit it), then you have a great starting point for any aim.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are many exercises to check stroke and aim. One of the ones I think is most fun is to try to hit the object ball so thinly that it hardly moves. Once the distances and speed increases it gets trickier and trickier. One of the most satisfying things to me is to hit the ball so thinly that it just wobbles in place. Now, THAT is hard to do.

The rationale is that if you know where the edge of the ball is (and are able to hit it), then you have a great starting point for any aim.

You can use almost any shot as a sanity check.

As an example: a while back I noticed that I was getting a lot of unintended english on my 14.1 break shots. A swarp had crept into my stroke. So I think anytime the CB or OB does not behave exactly the way you intend you can go back and use that to diagnose a mechanical issue.

Lou Figueroa
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
*sigh*….I guess because I'm just a sucker for human nature and keep thinking that even the most hardened individuals will eventually leave others alone to aim a pool ball any way they choose...without heaping ridicule and skepticism on them or the man who put it all together, Stan Shuffett, who is a good friend of mine.
I was able to do that with Brian Crist and his Poolology…I stopped trashing him and his method. If his fraction method works good for him and his followers, that's okay with me. Why can't others do the same concerning MY chosen method?
This is Easter Sunday, the day that shook the Roman Empire when my savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
Enjoy this day, Straightline, don't forget to pray and shake someone's hand every day.:)🎚️(y)
Regards,
Peter Lowenstein
Jesus actually returned as promised. He said something like, "fool me once..." and vanished. He is rumored to be laying low in a gay review.
Nobody has a problem with Stan S. AFAIC, he shoots good, wonderful. He has ideas on pool, even better. He wants lots of money for a concept he can't explain. Oh, wait...
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
You say cte works best for you but I notice you dont have cue ball control or play shape for any next ball in your demonstrations. Is there a specific reason why you dont feel shape is a factor besides aiming or do you feel you dont need to using your cte
Um, I have addressed shape in some videos. Of course shape is important and I have never ever never ever ever said otherwise or in any way downplayed it. In fact I made several videos about the use of cte and backhand English to play shape when stun, draw or follow at the right speed isn't enough.

 
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JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Jesus actually returned as promised. He said something like, "fool me once..." and vanished. He is rumored to be laying low in a gay review.
Nobody has a problem with Stan S. AFAIC, he shoots good, wonderful. He has ideas on pool, even better. He wants lots of money for a concept he can't explain. Oh, wait...
He can and does explain it. Just because I don't understand particle physics doesn't mean that particle physics are not a valid field.

One does not need to explain things to your satisfaction. When a person puts out ideas and they find resonance and provide tangible benefit.

In the case of aiming systems the clear immediate tangible benefit is improved pocketing.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He can and does explain it. Just because I don't understand particle physics doesn't mean that particle physics are not a valid field.

One does not need to explain things to your satisfaction. When a person puts out ideas and they find resonance and provide tangible benefit.

In the case of aiming systems the clear immediate tangible benefit is improved pocketing.
Yeah but the guys at Cern aren't spamming AZB about splitting atoms. And I have zero issues pocketing with contact geometry.
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He can and does explain it. Just because I don't understand particle physics doesn't mean that particle physics are not a valid field.

One does not need to explain things to your satisfaction. When a person puts out ideas and they find resonance and provide tangible benefit.

In the case of aiming systems the clear immediate tangible benefit is improved pocketing.
John, since you're a member of Stan's CTE Pro One site, you might want to take a look in there today.
There is a slow motion video taken from behind Efren of him definitely sliding his bridge hand into an offset position and then pivoting to the shot line. He is better at disguising it than Bustamante. That secret group of Filipinos is way ahead of most American players.
(Validating what is written on page 83 of the "Center Pocket Music" book.)
It could be encouraging to some of the guys you try to help, who may be getting barraged with negativity from the skeptics and knockers. I can just about imagine the heat they're getting from those who are uninformed and filled with hatred.
 
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