A return to tradition
- Thread starter Slasher
- Start date
As soon as I get my Diveney cue in a few weeks I'll be able to do some "unofficial/unscientific" testing on my own of the 2 different shafts I'm having him make for it, One is a Predator 314-2 shaft, one is a "Timeless Timber/Lakewood Salvage" shaft. I may have him make a "regular" shaft for it as well, I still haven't decided.
I'll have a few weeks that I don't have to play league as we have a few weeks off between X-mas and New Year and I plan on spending a LOT of time on the tables using/trying out these different shafts on the cue. It will be interesting to see how differently they hit/play on the same butt. Right now I have it in my head that I will like the 314-2 shaft the best after trying some of the Predator shafts previously, but maybe I'll end up liking the Lakewood shaft better. Hopefully I'll be able to see/feel the difference between the different shafts and be able to make up my mind..........time will tell.
I'm sure I'll post my "unofficial" results when the time comes. (If anyone will be interested.
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I'll have a few weeks that I don't have to play league as we have a few weeks off between X-mas and New Year and I plan on spending a LOT of time on the tables using/trying out these different shafts on the cue. It will be interesting to see how differently they hit/play on the same butt. Right now I have it in my head that I will like the 314-2 shaft the best after trying some of the Predator shafts previously, but maybe I'll end up liking the Lakewood shaft better. Hopefully I'll be able to see/feel the difference between the different shafts and be able to make up my mind..........time will tell.
I'm sure I'll post my "unofficial" results when the time comes. (If anyone will be interested.
)cdmexposer said:
Since the tip remains in contact with the cb for only a millisecond, I don't think there is any slippage...except in the case of a miscue.
It certainly could be so, but I am not aware of any tests that show that a LD shaft causes any measurable difference in spin.
The hardness/softness of the tip may contribute to spin in the opinion of some and the shape of the tip certainly does contribute to the ability to impart spin.
But I would certainly be interested in being pointed to any research contradicting the above.
The bottom line for me and the numerous pros who use LD shafts is that the automatic reduction in squirt reduces the margin of error caused by it and is therefore, a fundamental benefit.
Clearly, there are differences in "feel" but feel, like taste is a highly personal thing. Just because some like fish and others don't doesn't alter the basic nature of the fish.
And clearly, "feel" is created AFTER the shot has been hit so feel is not a contributing factor to the hit. But just as certainly, a feel that you enjoy will lead to a better experience and will not be distracting relative to a feel that you do not enjoy.
So the question..."Can feel contribute or detract from my quality of play." must be answered, "Yes." But not because of any physical contribution that feel imparts on the shot...rather the quality of play varies with the emotional impact of enjoyment vs. non-enjoyment...IMHO.
So, I prefer to live with the feel of my LD shaft (which, fortunately, feels fine to me) rather than to sacrifice less squirt for a more pleasing feel.
I think the same thesis relates to the extinction of persimmon woods in golf. The feel and the SOUND of wooden woods was dramatically and forever changed with the introduction of metal woods but everyone eventually said...to hell with the sound and feel, I want the additional yardage.
Regards,
Jim
Slasher said:
My $.02
A race car driver needs that "feel" as part of his control since he is continuing his action, a pool player can do nothing to change the course of action once the hit has been made. "Feeling" the hit has nothing to do with the outcome of the shot, but "feeling" a race car can definitely contribute to the outcome of the race.
Does that make sense to anyone else but me?
I like the "feel" of a wood-wood type joint, not the stainless steel type joints so I play with nothing but cues of that type, so I do understand the "feel" issue of the hit with some players, but I agree with av84fun in his reasoning for using a LD shaft vs. conventional shafts.
Best advice to all...........do what is right for you.
Well if all these new super low deflection thing a ma jibs are the shizzle, and everybody plays so much better and what not,
Why is Mosconi's record still unbroken in Straight Pool
I believe the consecutive racks run record in 9 ball and 8 ball are still the same.
I haven't seen a top pro say, I went from 10 packs to 20 packs with my insert low deflection shaft name here _________.
no-sho = non believer
Why is Mosconi's record still unbroken in Straight Pool
I believe the consecutive racks run record in 9 ball and 8 ball are still the same.
I haven't seen a top pro say, I went from 10 packs to 20 packs with my insert low deflection shaft name here _________.
no-sho = non believer
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Feedback contributes to learning. Whether the current shot can be affected by it or not, future shots ("the race") certainly can be. It's definitely not just a matter of personal preference and enjoyment - it has practical application.
pj
chgo
Slasher said:
Your analogy doesn't relate to pool. In car racing, the feel you describe is a continuous thing and signals what is right and wrong about the car's set up.
In pool, the "feel" occurs after the shot and my point was that no matter how it feels, the shot is over...which is untrue with car racing.
In addition, and for more importantly, there IS "feel" using a LD shaft...it is just DIFFERENT feel...not devoid of feel and you can learn just as much from the feel of a LD shaft as any other IMHO.
But I say again, that if a player simply doesn't like the feel of an LD shaft, then he/she should absolutely not use one.
Regards,
Jim
IA8baller said:My $.02
A race car driver needs that "feel" as part of his control since he is continuing his action, a pool player can do nothing to change the course of action once the hit has been made. "Feeling" the hit has nothing to do with the outcome of the shot, but "feeling" a race car can definitely contribute to the outcome of the race.
Does that make sense to anyone else but me?
I like the "feel" of a wood-wood type joint, not the stainless steel type joints so I play with nothing but cues of that type, so I do understand the "feel" issue of the hit with some players, but I agree with av84fun in his reasoning for using a LD shaft vs. conventional shafts.
Best advice to all...........do what is right for you.
"Does that make sense to anyone else but me? "
I do...word for word.
Regards,
Jim
no-sho said:
First, Mosconi's legendary run was accomplished in an exhibition and its credibility was established by an affidavit that was signed by numerous attendees at the exhibition.
Bhe vastly under-recognized champion player, Babe Cranfield, ran 768 in a practice session in front of numerous witnesses. He didn't bother to circulate an affidavit because, I am sure, he simply didn't care. He remained steadfast in his choice to remain an "amateur" just like, and for many of the same reasons as the legendary Bobby Jones.
All pool lovers should read up on the Great Babe...and will acquire a new hero if you do.
But the issue is whether LD shafts provide an advantage due to the reduction in squirt. Just because one of the greats of all-time didn't use one (because they didn't exist...sort of...more on that below) doesn't mean that the rest of the pool playing community which does not possess Mosconi's SUPER-SUPERIOR skills would not benefit.
And as all reputable cue makers will attest, there can be a significant difference in the deflection characteristics of traditional shafts and unless the PARTICULAR shaft used by any given player is subjected to testing, we cannot know what their deflection characteristics might have been.
So Willie could have been using a "LD" shaft...but one where the artistry of its creator and the wood he chose...and the way that wood was cured and fashioned contributed to its LD characteristics rather than the technology that is used in production LD cues today.
Regards,
Jim
Well, this thread went kind of off topic 
I believe that if you grew up playing with regular hard-maple shafts, then a predator or any other LD shaft will not help your game too much, because you are already used to shooting with deflection and compensating for it.
I've been playing for about 4~5 years now total with several breaks inbetween.
I switched to a 314 about a year and a half into me playing pool, and noticed the difference right away. At the time I didn't completely understand english and spin and the way english on the cueball effected the trajectory of the object ball so the 314 did wonders for my game. I was able to pocket balls a lot better, and was able to get position on balls while making shots.
My cue (which was a beautiful jerry oliver custom with a 314 shaft) got stolen about 2 years ago so for a year or so i went to a scruggs sneaky pete which to my surprise made balls just as well as my 314 shaft. By then I had improved to the point where i understood the interplay of balls on english shots so that could've been a reason i felt no difference between shots.
But when i went back to the 314 shaft when i bought a p2, i noticed the difference right away, and was able to pocket balls better, and noticed my position play was better.
I now shoot with a predator sneaky with a Z2 shaft. I guess my greatest endorsement for the predator LD shafts is that my girlfriend, who had never seriously played pool until she met me (yes i converted her) can now run 3~4 balls after less then a year of serious playing, and understands rudimentary position, while knowing absolutely nothing about deflection and how to comphensate for it.
I believe that if you grew up playing with regular hard-maple shafts, then a predator or any other LD shaft will not help your game too much, because you are already used to shooting with deflection and compensating for it.
I've been playing for about 4~5 years now total with several breaks inbetween.
I switched to a 314 about a year and a half into me playing pool, and noticed the difference right away. At the time I didn't completely understand english and spin and the way english on the cueball effected the trajectory of the object ball so the 314 did wonders for my game. I was able to pocket balls a lot better, and was able to get position on balls while making shots.
My cue (which was a beautiful jerry oliver custom with a 314 shaft) got stolen about 2 years ago so for a year or so i went to a scruggs sneaky pete which to my surprise made balls just as well as my 314 shaft. By then I had improved to the point where i understood the interplay of balls on english shots so that could've been a reason i felt no difference between shots.
But when i went back to the 314 shaft when i bought a p2, i noticed the difference right away, and was able to pocket balls better, and noticed my position play was better.
I now shoot with a predator sneaky with a Z2 shaft. I guess my greatest endorsement for the predator LD shafts is that my girlfriend, who had never seriously played pool until she met me (yes i converted her
) can now run 3~4 balls after less then a year of serious playing, and understands rudimentary position, while knowing absolutely nothing about deflection and how to comphensate for it.Patrick Johnson said:
There would be "feel" and "feedback" if you hit a potato with a broomstick just like Willie did. The feel is different between various butt/shaft combinations but there is no evidence that one version of feel is any better or worse than any other version of feel.
Numb up SVB's right hand with lidocaine and he will still rob you blind.
But the difference between the various versions of feel is absolutely a matter of personal preference. Were that not true, the ALL pros would use LD shafts...or none of them would.
Besides, it is the look and the outcome of the shot that are the primary learning tools.
But just to avoid misunderstanding or misrepresentation, if the hit of a cue stick doesn't "feel good" to the player, then his/her game certainly could suffer...but good/bad feel is irrefutably a matter of personal preferences.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
Review that horrendous thread? You must be joking. I already reviewed the quote which is enough for me. It's on page 4 of 15.
Nit pick what you said all you want. The picture was still applicable.
You mentioned that people would be impatient "regarding yet another [perceived] witch doctor spreading his voodoo". (Notice you didn't say "perceived" but I added it in there just to make you happy.)
So, to recap: you made a post. I posted a picture of a Witch Doctor to provide a visual aid to your quote. End of story. It was a joke. You didn't get it. That's OK. It wasn't that funny anyway.
Good day to you, sir.
How about a radical oversimplification for a change of pace?
I play pool for enjoyment and I enjoy the sound of some shaft/tip combinations more than others, so I use those shaft/tip combinations. I believe that almost all the variability in "feel" across different shafts is really variations in the sound the cue makes when it strikes the cue ball. You hear people who like the "ping" of some cues or who dislike the "tick" or "click" in other cues. IMHO, it has virtually nothing to do with the objectively measurable performance of the cue, just personal preference regarding the sound of the hit. So "returning to tradition" may be just going back to a sound that you like and it may be that you like it because it is linked to your early experiences with playing pool.
I play pool for enjoyment and I enjoy the sound of some shaft/tip combinations more than others, so I use those shaft/tip combinations. I believe that almost all the variability in "feel" across different shafts is really variations in the sound the cue makes when it strikes the cue ball. You hear people who like the "ping" of some cues or who dislike the "tick" or "click" in other cues. IMHO, it has virtually nothing to do with the objectively measurable performance of the cue, just personal preference regarding the sound of the hit. So "returning to tradition" may be just going back to a sound that you like and it may be that you like it because it is linked to your early experiences with playing pool.
av84fun said:
You need a wife AND girlfriend to be complete!
Your brain is fully capable of interpreting ANY feel from your cue any way you want it too... Why not get used to a different feel and recognize the positives and negatives from it? To me, its the same as any other adjustment in our game...
Besides, feeling a center ball hit and a one tip left hit are completely different... If you are as attuned to the magic feel of your cue then you already learned how to interpret different feels as good or bad... Why not use those powers on a LD feel and gain a slight advantage?
Lets talk adjustments again - Most people who struggle going from shaft to shaft are missing crucial knowledge. You must fully understand the physics involved with pocketing balls to be able to adjust to any playing condition.
If you can pocket balls with a maple shaft and miss everything with a LD shaft then ---- you are not a very good player to begin with. After missing a few shots you should quickly realize what you need to do to fix the problem... Same goes for any other variable playing condition...
Like I said before, its all in your head...
If ANY shaft out there stops your game dead in its tracks, its not the shaft but rather your lack of knowledge and ability to adjust... I know that gets lost on some people cause that level of play is just out of their reach at the moment. Think about it...
Besides, feeling a center ball hit and a one tip left hit are completely different... If you are as attuned to the magic feel of your cue then you already learned how to interpret different feels as good or bad... Why not use those powers on a LD feel and gain a slight advantage?
Lets talk adjustments again - Most people who struggle going from shaft to shaft are missing crucial knowledge. You must fully understand the physics involved with pocketing balls to be able to adjust to any playing condition.
If you can pocket balls with a maple shaft and miss everything with a LD shaft then ---- you are not a very good player to begin with. After missing a few shots you should quickly realize what you need to do to fix the problem... Same goes for any other variable playing condition...
Like I said before, its all in your head...
If ANY shaft out there stops your game dead in its tracks, its not the shaft but rather your lack of knowledge and ability to adjust... I know that gets lost on some people cause that level of play is just out of their reach at the moment. Think about it...